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 Post subject: The right to repair
PostPosted: September 19, 2018, 2:45 pm 
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When I read this article, I knew I had to share it with the group. As builders, recyclers and re-users, this is a topic that I am sure many can relate to.
I have some horror stories, at home and at work that really rankle me. I'm not a political person, but if I were in Nebraska, this would be a cause that I would volunteer for. I get doubly irritated when I see and hear the pious responses of the manufacturers, that they are just saving me from myself. :BH: Enjoy the article, and let's hear some stories.
I'll lead off.
At work, I deal with a number of control panels (motor controls, PLCs, etc.). A few years ago, my main panel stopped communicating with the SCADA (computer that runs the plant); calls to the manufacturer; no problem, don't touch anything, we have a part that is plug and play; well have it out to you in no time; only about $ 2,000. Hmmm, hold on there Mr. ABJ Parts man. Me takes a look, with the help of an electrical engineer friend, and he says, "looks like an Ethernet switch in a fancy little box. Bought one for $ 19.95 at Best Buy, without the fancy box. It works just fine. :cheers:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... eere-apple

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: September 19, 2018, 2:55 pm 
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They didn't mention Tesla in that article and as I understand it (I don't own a Tesla nor do I know anyone who does) they are the worst company in that respect.

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: September 20, 2018, 3:27 pm 
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Similar article from a couple of years ago mentioned that several farmers have obtained bootleg software from Ukraine/Russia since the U.S. manufacturers refuse to cease holding the equipment hostage to their monopoly.

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: September 20, 2018, 9:25 pm 
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That article is over 18 moths old. Anything come of it?

I saw a TV program (or was it an internet video?) on the Tesla repair guy buying up totaled cars for repair parts. He ran into very similar issues I think. Tesla would not support him. I can understand it. Why should Tesla, or any other company provide the know-how and tools for a competitor to undercut their repair center? On the other hand, I think that they should at least provide the spare parts to the independents.

I once had been quoted over $1,000 for repairs to a piece of specialized piece of test equipment by the manufacturer. We decided it was uneconomical to repair at that cost. I decided to take a whack at it. I fixed it with a penny resistor!

A similar situation many years ago when our engineering lab had one of the 1st scientific calculators. The calculator cost over $1500 at the time and was shared by al the dept engineers. All this for a calculator that had fewer functions than a Jr High School math student has in his pocket today (or in a free app on my android phone). Well it broke and sent in for repair It was deemed by the mfgr to be unrepairable. For a few pennies one of the guys had that nixie tube readout calculator humming away again.

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: September 20, 2018, 9:43 pm 
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The most irksome aspect is the manufacturers claims that after paying $250.000.00 the "Buyer" does not actually own the product!
This not software, it's hardware, and if I buy hardware it is most certainly mine.
For 250K equipment I would NEVER accept the "Oh, that's over five years old, it's obsolete and no longer supported, buy a new one" routine.
So at some point the manufacturers are going to HAVE to allow alternate support.

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: September 20, 2018, 10:21 pm 
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RichardSIA wrote:
The most irksome aspect is the manufacturers claims that after paying $250.000.00 the "Buyer" does not actually own the product!
This not software, it's hardware, and if I buy hardware it is most certainly mine.
For 250K equipment I would NEVER accept the "Oh, that's over five years old, it's obsolete and no longer supported, buy a new one" routine.
So at some point the manufacturers are going to HAVE to allow alternate support.


I've got that today with my Ford Escape only worse. Let's see 2018(today) - 2015 (model year) = 3 years. Several functions of my Ford Sync are no longer supported! :BH: And no "Ford authorized" path to a more modern system short of buying a new vehicle. :ack: I should've bought another Hyundai!

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: September 22, 2018, 1:46 am 
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rx7locost wrote:
RichardSIA wrote:
The most irksome aspect is the manufacturers claims that after paying $250.000.00 the "Buyer" does not actually own the product!
This not software, it's hardware, and if I buy hardware it is most certainly mine.
For 250K equipment I would NEVER accept the "Oh, that's over five years old, it's obsolete and no longer supported, buy a new one" routine.
So at some point the manufacturers are going to HAVE to allow alternate support.


I've got that today with my Ford Escape only worse. Let's see 2018(today) - 2015 (model year) = 3 years. Several functions of my Ford Sync are no longer supported! :BH: And no "Ford authorized" path to a more modern system short of buying a new vehicle. :ack: I should've bought another Hyundai!


Nah, just build another Locost, or restore an old Brit car that never had such issues. :D
Time to start boycotting the entire notion that we are slaves to whatever (%@*# is being offered to us!
"Starve the beast" needs to be applied to all consumer products.
If it's junk or poorly supported, do not buy it.
Eventually the manufacturers should get the hint, an admonishing letter may help. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: October 1, 2018, 4:38 pm 
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Location: That point where the humidity and the temperature combine forces to destroy all that is good
Keeping older vehicles operational is my chosen alternative, but we're looking down the barrels of several guns in the legislative firing squad aimed at enforcing our purchase/lease of new vehicles: Elimination of incandescent lighting and mandating HID. Mandating the various airbag and supplemental restraint systems. Mandating tire inflation monitors. Mandating ABS systems. How? By getting the Insurance Industry to raise rates on vehicles not equipped with such systems, and by establishing annual cut-offs for vehicle registrations for non-compliant vehicles. There are already programs that limit the mileage you can put on older vehicles that happen to be registered as "antique" or "veteran" cars; which is why you'll never see a historical vehicle plate on anything I drive. It's required in several states that you maintain a "newer" vehicle as your PRIMARY mode of transportation and not your ANTIQUE as your SOLE mode. I don't make the kind of money it takes to operate a new car or truck. I refuse to make car payments that are more than my mortgage. But, I'm fighting a losing battle and I know it. Sooner or later, I won't be able to do the maintenance required on my OLD car; I won't be able to BUILD another from the bones of another old car; I'll just have to surrender my license and take to public transportation for the last few weeks of my life (since my life IS structured around cars).....

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: October 1, 2018, 8:41 pm 
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The newest vehicle I own is a 1990 C1500 truck, which I hope to get rid of soon.
The newest vehicle I work on at all is a 1996 Miata, only because it's Mom's daily driver.
Most of my cars are from the 60's because cars from the 50's are just too expensive now. :BH:
I will be building my Locost/Kit Cars with a 50's perspective firmly in mind.
If Gov. Org. wants to stop me it will take more than legislation to do so! :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: October 2, 2018, 8:53 am 
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Location: That point where the humidity and the temperature combine forces to destroy all that is good
I also foresee a requirement that we show receipts for any and all maintenance work done "just in case" there's an accident with injuries or death, so a chain of responsibility can be established... (chain of responsibility, my arse; finger of blame is more like it) so that insurers and attorneys can find money. If said receipts are non-existent or, worse, self-generated, then all that responsibility falls on the owner himself.

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: October 2, 2018, 12:02 pm 
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Our national anthem now goes along the lines of "America, home of the fee, land of the knave....."
Hard to believe we got so far down the serfdom rabbit hole so quickly!
There is an election coming, PLEASE vote carefully and look beyond the sloganeering campaigns are using to distract you from the important issues.

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: October 2, 2018, 12:36 pm 
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RichardSIA wrote:
Hard to believe we got so far down the serfdom rabbit hole so quickly!
It's not hard to believe at all, when the politicians from BOTH parties are merely pursuing different paths to the same end. All they're really doing is allowing you to pick your poison.

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: October 2, 2018, 3:14 pm 
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Location: That point where the humidity and the temperature combine forces to destroy all that is good
Another problematic item to note, is that what is critically important to YOU may be of inconsequence to ME. Not saying that I'm indifferent to other people's wants and needs, just that, like most people, I put mine first in most cases. We as a nation face some important issues that effect us all differently. It's going to be very important to look past our own self-interest and put the interests of the NATION first. Now; there are several groups of people who simply refuse to look at any issue objectively if it impacts their demographic, and there are political machines that can and do exploit that self-centeredness with a passion bordering on madness. The simple option we started this conversation about; the right to repair; may seem trivial to many people who just don't think that it effects them in their lives. But, it DOES. It removes the basic right to self-determination at the lowest level. You want that machine fixed? take it to the dealer, regardless of what it is. Car, toaster, TV, electric drill, whatever. If you're unable to repair it yourself EVEN if you have the skillset required, because the seller has locked you out of the loop, then your rights are infringed. What rights? Well; the right to choose whether or not to pay for repairs. The right to improve faulty design if possible. The right to DO as you bloody well CHOOSE with your own property.....

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: October 2, 2018, 3:47 pm 
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Raccoonman wrote:
The right to DO as you bloody well CHOOSE with your own property.....


You have the right to get rid of whatever property is inconveniencing you.

You do not have an entitlement to have corporations succumb to the needs of you when the majority is happy with the products.

Unless the laws are being imposed onto already existing old equipment and only new equipment is being unsatisfactory to your repair needs then its all fair game.

Like the other poster stated, he doesn't like new stuff so he doesn't buy or use new stuff.



Average consumer is happy having a new car and a monthly bill for it. Average secondary consumer is happy having a cheaper car after new car gets sold 5 years later and pay shops to repair things on them.

Without divulging into other political issues of nation interest vs specific demographic group interests etc.

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 Post subject: Re: The right to repair
PostPosted: October 2, 2018, 4:16 pm 
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Nevermind that the right to repair already largely exists, and is still expanding. The issue of farm equipment has already been settled with the manufacturers since the article in question, in a similar fashion to that of the automotive industry. Accordingly we primarily have the politicians of Massachusetts to thank for it, who were willing to actually take a stand (with actions rather than just words) on behalf of individuals and small business' rights (to repair) against the big-business corporate lobby...Something to keep in mind if considering this issue when voting carefully.

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