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PostPosted: January 28, 2020, 4:20 pm 
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A couple of weeks ago I picked up maybe the worlds dirtiest and most neglected old Craftsman lathe
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lathe.jpg
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It had been sitting in a workshed untouched for at least the last 10 years since the owner passed. I bought it from his son who is late 50's early 60's. So it's possible the lathe had been ignored for a while longer than 10 years.

When I went to look at it the motor would turn, but just smoke the belts. The headstock would BARELY turn by hand.
The tailstock quill was frozen and the tailstock itself was stuck to the was.

The carriage wouldn't move and neither would the cross slide.

It had rust, dust, dirt dobber nests, and mouse crap everywhere.

With all that said it was intact and I thought I could bring it back to life. No plans to "restore" it to look special, just to restore it to functionality.

The next day I headed to the garage armed with steel wool pads, a fine edged scraper, fine sandpaper, WD-40, moly grease, and 30w oil, and 3 in 1 oil.
Step 1 sweep out the rust, chips, and mouse poo. Knock off the dirt dobber nests.
Step 2 brushed 3 in 1 oil on everything and let it sit while I drank some coffee.
Step 3 Scrape, scrub, oil, wipe down, repeat, repeat, repeat.
I spent the better part of 8 hours with WD40, 3 in 1 oil, a scotchbrite pad, oothbrush, some 220 grit sandpaper, and a fine edge hardened steel scraper doing step 3.
I loosened the gib adjusting screws to get plenty of slop in the carriage and tailstock, then started brushing and scraping away the gunk built up on the ways. In some places the goo was close to 1/8" thick.
Eventually I realized to get the ways clean would require removing at least the tailstock, so it hit the bench.

These pics are about 4 hours in.
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lathe 2.jpg
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Attachment:
lathe 3.jpg
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These pics were taken January 11th. Since then I've been doing small jobs with the lathe to give it some time to loosen up and see if it needs a full teardown to be serviceable.

Last weekend I made 8 weld bungs for the front suspension on the Locost project.
Operations were as follows:
Cut to rough length on the band saw
Chuck in lathe and center drill
Through drill to 1 size smaller than tap drill
drill to tap drill size
Face one end
turn diameter to press fit into tube. * when I got the diameter I was looking for I set the dial on the cross slide to zero. The turning was removing 0.109 .035 on the roughing passes and a .004 finish pass coming back to the preset 0 on the cross slide.
Remove and rechuck to face other end

I'm describing the detail on turning because I wanted to know how well it would repeat to size. with 8 parts I had 0.002 variation according to my micrometer. Close enough for me.

With the turning repeatability close enough for what I do, I have no plans to rip the carriage apart and place the feed screw or nuts.

What I have learned using it on small jobs is that the tired old motor has seen better days.
It still overheats in about minutes running on high speed.

What is one to do?????
I've seen a few videos on YouTube about DC treadmill motors on lathes, milling machines, drill presses and sanders. I spoke with a couple of friends and decided that's the direction for me.
She's getting a DC motor swap!!!!

I got on Craigslist and FB marketplace and started searching for the perfect treadmill.
My criteria is 2 hp minimum
rated for continuous duty
CHEAP

After a couple of days of calls and messages I snagged the perfect donor.
Attachment:
treadmill.jpg
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$30 on FB marketplace. Messaging with the owner I learned it had been collecting dust. The lady said it had a "Lube" error and wouldn't turn on. I get on Google and find out it's a smart treadmill. Every 150 miles it shuts down and won't run until you lube the belt and clear the code.

Clearing the code is literally a 4 second fix. Press and hold STOP and Speed ^ for 4 seconds.

Treadmill works like a champ!!!!

I'll update this thread as I gut the treadmill and go about fitting the motor and a variable speed drive to the lathe.

:cheers:

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OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
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PostPosted: January 28, 2020, 5:44 pm 
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You sir, are having too much fun. I, on the other hand, have filled all wall space in my garage and then some to put such a wonderful beast. I have lusted after a lathe for oh, so many years. Alas, (Should that be Atlas?) I have resigned myself to living my lathe life vicariously through you.

More. MORE. We want to see more! :cheers:

P.S. Around my garage walls, I have a Yard tools, Gas containers, a paint cabinet, a sandblast cabinet, snow blower, 5HP compressor, 4ft shelving unit, Table Saw, Planer, cutoff saw, door to outside, misc. scrap steel storage, 2- 5 to 6 ft long workbenches, a drill press, a grinder, Garbage and recycle bins, the door to the house. Then in the middle, there is the large HF tool chest, my TIG welder, and an old Craftsman tool chest. I guess I can't complain too much.

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PostPosted: January 29, 2020, 9:08 am 
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Chuck, I wouldn't complain with your tool collection.
A couple of garage "make room and organize" tips.
First, I have 3 walls covered with retail slat wall above the 4' line on the wall.
Attachment:
drywall3.jpg
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All of the hand tools that were in my over and under tool chest are either hanging on a wall or in a cabinet drawer.

Second, the Cabinets are IKEA that came off Craigslist. There are a couple with doors, but most have full extension drawers. They are the bases for my workbenches. I have 8 foot and 5 foot bench tops from MDF. The 8 foot bench has a place where I can sit and work.

Third, the storage shed makes a HUGE difference. The old Gladiator garage cabinets I used are in the shed. All my "overflow" tools and parts go to the shed so the active tools can have garage space.
Right now down in the shed is a set of Keizer wheels, spare 13" slicks, table saw, pedestal grinder, English wheel, small brake, shrinker, stretcher, multiple hand saws, chain saw, paints and fluids, and all of the yard tools except the lawn mower.

Fourth, almost everything is on wheels. The only hard to move items are the benches, lathe and mill. Before all is said and done the lathe might be on wheels. I have an idea to stiffen the cabinet / frame enough to make it mobile.

Thats the only way I have space for the lathe and mill

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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PostPosted: January 29, 2020, 10:28 am 
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rx7locost wrote:
I have lusted after a lathe for oh, so many years. Alas, (Should that be Atlas?) I have resigned myself to living my lathe life vicariously through you.


I see what you did there! My first engineering/fabricating job our main shop lathe was an Atlas. I need to check in and see if it is still in use. My guess is yes.

Good luck with the new tool, TooBusy!

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PostPosted: January 29, 2020, 11:02 am 
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If you ever decide to open up a used treadmill prepare to be grossed out.
:puke:

There's about a 2 inch thick layer of dust, hair, and some tings not really identifiable under the motor cover. The shop vac grabbed the most of it, at least enough for a couple of pics.

Motor is a score. 2.25 hp continuous duty at 90 VDC and 3150 rpm
Attachment:
treadmill 2.png
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Motor controller, maybe not so lucky. This isn't the MC-60 style board which is BY FAR the easiest to retrofit with a 10k pot.
I need to do some digging, but this looks like a MC-2100 style that gets a pulse width modulated input from the display panel.
Attachment:
treadmill 3.png
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If that's the case my fastest / simplest solution is to buy a 10kW SCR controller and a bridge rectifier. Still, those parts are less than $20.

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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PostPosted: January 29, 2020, 3:20 pm 
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Thirty minutes work during lunch today.
phillips screwdriver, crescent wrench, 2 allen wrenches

Attachment:
treadmill 4.png
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It looks like the motor controller gets a PWM signal from the control board on the console.
There is a tach wheel on the motor with a speed sensor circuit giving feedback to the motor control board.
Unplug that feedback sensor and it starts, spools up to WOT, then shuts down.

I guess the next step is a choice. cut and splice the existing bits into a DIY controller or buy the SCR and rectifier.

I can put the motor controller and console on ebay if either sells I've more than recouped the investment. If both sell the cash will pay for the quick change tool post and holders.
:D

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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PostPosted: January 30, 2020, 1:15 pm 
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I did a little tinkering in the garage last night with the boards, pdf of the troubleshooting guide, and YouTube. The control board does want a pulsed signal.

Basically this treadmill is a little too smart. It gets a PWM signal from a 555 timer on the console board. Then uses the speed sensor on the motor to a feedback loop to be sure it's in the right zone and finally compares motor speed to a speed sensor on the track pulley.
A difference between expected speed and measured belt speed gives and error message. A difference between PWM calculated speed and motor speed gives and error. And on and on...

So I got on ebay and bought parts.
Attachment:
SCR.png
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Attachment:
bridge.png
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10kW SCR is WAAAAY overkill for a 90V motor operating at 19amps. 90V*19A = 1710 Watts
But, since these are built from nothing but the cheapest Chinesium available, overkill is probably a good thing.

They should be here before I get back from the South America business trip.

The salvaged motor control board and console will go on ebay cheap. If they sell, they'll pay for this project.

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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PostPosted: January 30, 2020, 1:51 pm 
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Tommy, that is a 220VAC input controller, It may, or may not work at 110V input. Certainly I would derate it by 50% minimum for the 110V operation. 220V @10000W would seem to indicate ~45Amp max output.

90VDC @ 2.25HP motor would require ~ 18.6Amps Maybe it would work.

Perhaps this one might be a better choice? https://www.ebay.com/itm/10000W-AC110V- ... SwXAFdoUZb

It is rated 10,000W 110VAC input. It includes a cooling fan.

I assume you will put the full wave bridge on the output to the motor? It may, or may not hum. Adding some big honking capacitors may help. Be aware that the peak voltage will be 1.414* the RMS voltage when selecting the caps. So 200V rated caps are minimum, 250V caps recommended. You will also need a heat sink for the bridge rectifier.

I wonder what a stalled motor might draw, current-wise. Or possibly even the startup current might fry the bridge rectifier? Startup current might be ~ 4X the running current or 18.6amps * 4 = 75Amps. The bridge is rated 50A while the controller will source >90A. Hopefully the controller has some sort of load current protection.

I am exercising my old power supply design neurons. And I am usually on the conservative side.

Keep us informed.

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Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

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PostPosted: January 30, 2020, 3:49 pm 
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rx7locost wrote:
Tommy, that is a 220VAC input controller, It may, or may not work at 110V input. Certainly I would derate it by 50% minimum for the 110V operation. 220V @10000W would seem to indicate ~45Amp max output.

90VDC @ 2.25HP motor would require ~ 18.6Amps Maybe it would work.

Perhaps this one might be a better choice? https://www.ebay.com/itm/10000W-AC110V- ... SwXAFdoUZb

It is rated 10,000W 110VAC input. It includes a cooling fan.

I assume you will put the full wave bridge on the output to the motor? It may, or may not hum. Adding some big honking capacitors may help. Be aware that the peak voltage will be 1.414* the RMS voltage when selecting the caps. So 200V rated caps are minimum, 250V caps recommended. You will also need a heat sink for the bridge rectifier.

I wonder what a stalled motor might draw, current-wise. Or possibly even the startup current might fry the bridge rectifier? Startup current might be ~ 4X the running current or 18.6amps * 4 = 75Amps. The bridge is rated 50A while the controller will source >90A. Hopefully the controller has some sort of load current protection.

I am exercising my old power supply design neurons. And I am usually on the conservative side.

Keep us informed.


Keep exercising Chuck, the information is valuable.
Yes, I saw the 110V 10kw unit. That was part of the YouTube research project. There's a bunch of videos about these SCR's available. One guy will open them up and reverse engineer the circuit. From what I saw last night the component wise difference between the one I picked and the one you picked is the tiny little fan.
I de-rated my choice for the 110V vs 220V and the Chinesium aspect.

Startup current was 1.5 amps at 6 volts when I played with the motor last night. I ran it for a good bit on my battery charger at 12V 2A setting and hard a hard time stalling it by hand. 12V 6A setting I wasn't comfortable stalling it by hand. I tried, it had more oomph than I wanted to wrestle.

The controller will get taken apart and mounted on a larger heat sink with the bridge attached with a nut and bolt bedded in thermal paste.

I'm pretty sure I have a 110v computer fan laying around here somewhere in my miscellaneous box-o-goodies. I know I have a 12v fan and small power supply that could find a place in the lathe cabinet if I can't find the 110V piece.

End goal is a master switch / emergency shutoff and a pot mounted for easy access on the lathe.

There may be a digital tach showing spindle rpm. I already have most everything I need for that little project.

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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PostPosted: January 31, 2020, 1:35 pm 
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Preface this with "I didn't read the entire thread."

A commonly overlooked issue is that of power level. Say that a 240 VAC part is derated to run a 120 VAC load. Depending on load type, it may need X watts to start up, regardless of voltage. This means that if the voltage decreases by 50%, current draw will double.

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PostPosted: January 31, 2020, 3:49 pm 
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KB58 wrote:
Preface this with "I didn't read the entire thread."

A commonly overlooked issue is that of power level. Say that a 240 VAC part is derated to run a 120 VAC load. Depending on load type, it may need X watts to start up, regardless of voltage. This means that if the voltage decreases by 50%, current draw will double.


True. A lot of that would include trying to start and rate of accelerate the mechanics of the lathe mass and gearing.

Whether a controller is running at full output power or a some output lower than that, the output current components are designed for the 100% level only. In other words, if you run it at 50% duty cycle (50% RMS out voltage) the max output current rating is not changed

A 10,000W 220V converter would imply a max continuous output current capacity of 10,000/220=45A

A 10,000W 110V converter would imply a max continuous output current capacity of 10,000/220=91A

Your motor is rated at 90V DC, essentially in this case, RMS. You would never want to run more than that voltage output. That would imply, very roughly a 90V/220V output duty cycle or 40% duty cycle for the 220 unit and 90V/110V= 82% duty cycle for the 110 unit. To protect the motor, I would modify the potentiometer circuit to prevent you from ever going over that regardless of whether you use 110V or the 220V controller.

Working from the above, the max available power from either controller running your motor at full rated voltage would be : 90V*45A=4050W for the 220V unit and 90V*.82A=7380W for the 110V controller.

Assuming the running current x 4 for startup currents, 18.5A * 4= 74A. Clearly the 100V controller is the better, more powerful converter in your application.

So much is unknown about the lathe and the controllers, experimentation will tell you if your decision was a good one or not. Don't be surprised if you have to go thru several iterations.

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PostPosted: February 1, 2020, 4:21 pm 
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A little update on the lathe project.
Yesterday I went out to the garage and machined a couple of polyrib belt pulleys to do a test fit using the ribbed belt.
I tacked up the DC motor bracket to the AC motor mounting plate.
Attachment:
lathe 4.jpg
lathe 4.jpg [ 74.34 KiB | Viewed 552 times ]


All in all not too bad, but I was concerned about running the lathe at too high of a spindle speed.

This morning I head back to the garage and checked to see if the AC motor pulley would fir the DC motor.
Lo and behold, both have 3/4 shaft diameter.
So, I swapped the polyrib pulley for the V belt and had to slightly modify the bracket for a different location in the cabinet.

Another test fit, then weld er up.
Attachment:
lathe 5.jpg
lathe 5.jpg [ 106.83 KiB | Viewed 552 times ]


A little bit of adjusting for right tension and belt alignment, but no big deal.

I was able to fire up the lathe and run it on low speed with the 12V 2amp battery charger.
:yay:
Attachment:
lathe 6.png
lathe 6.png [ 188 KiB | Viewed 552 times ]


Run video on the fb Locost 7 builders page.
https://www.facebook.com/Locost7Builders/

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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PostPosted: February 7, 2020, 9:48 am 
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Quick update.
The bridge rectifier arrived while I was on the turnaround trip to Argentina. The SCR came in the mail last night.
This afternoon I'll play around with wiring and hope to do a short test run.

I put the treadmill controller on ebay for $55 buy it now with free shipping. It sold in 3 days. Shipping was about $8.
This conversion is now completely free and I have the treadmill control panel to sell.
:yay:

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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PostPosted: February 7, 2020, 2:59 pm 
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I wanted a peek inside the SCR; just two screws out of the cover plate and it's open.
Attachment:
lathe 8.png
lathe 8.png [ 237.71 KiB | Viewed 357 times ]


It's a remarkably simple circuit. It's explained better in a bunch of youtube videos than I could do it, so I'll let you search.
Anyway the variable resistor adjusts the trigger voltage for the DIAC which switches the TRIAC. As the TRIAC switches on and off it only allows part of the sine wave to pass through, varying the voltage.

Here's my one complaint on this circuit.
Attachment:
lathe 7.png
lathe 7.png [ 273.76 KiB | Viewed 357 times ]


That 470k ohm resistor is just too damm high. I'm 99% sure that I'll use at least 3/4 of the wiper before the motor ever comes on and I'll have very little to no speed control. Pretty sure if I swap it for a 10k pot I'll have the full range of speed control.

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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PostPosted: February 8, 2020, 12:54 pm 
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Treadmill conversion successful.

Last night I decided on placement for the SCR voltage regulator and bridge rectifier. I decided to use the existing switch and the wiring from the treadmill. I wanted to take advantage of the large thermal mass of the base cabinet, so the SCR and bridge bolt to the cabinet using the same hole.
Attachment:
lathe 9.png
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I put the SCR with the vent holes facing down and the heat sink up. Heat rises, so we'll see how well it breathes on it's own. Vent holes down also protects it from accidental splash.

Just a little better view of the setup.
Attachment:
lathe 10.png
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Attachment:
lathe 12.png
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With the original pulleys I have both variable motor speed control and the pulley drive adjustments. On lowest speed pulley setup I have full torque at about 20 rpm spindle speed. In back gear it's about 2 or 3 rpm. Great for threading.
Attachment:
lathe 11.png
lathe 11.png [ 314.34 KiB | Viewed 303 times ]


In highest speed pulley setup it WAAAAY overdrives the design intent of the owners manual. I expext most of the time to run it in high speed motor to layshaft and 1:1 from layshaft to spindle.

I ran it about 30 minutes last night for a test drive. Got a spindle speed I was happy with for aluminum and did some turning. She's a happy camper. After running it the SCR heat sink was still cool. the bridge and cabinet very near the bridge was slightly warm to the touch. Pretty sure this is going to work out just fine.

Short run video on my Fb page.

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Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


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