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 Post subject: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 6, 2009, 2:01 pm 
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So i see a lot of people using rivets on their sheer panels, floors, and different intrustion protection panels.. I have used a lot of the blind rivets with my little hand tool, but i want to learn about the ones all you master builders (airframe) use... i will be able to access both sides so i dont need blind ones. So what tools do i need, which rivets, and where do i get them? I want to use aluminum panels so welding isnt much of an option.

So help me out a bit here! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 6, 2009, 2:29 pm 
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I got about 25 pounds of odds and ends rivets from a scrap aluminum dealer in Phoenix. Great way to buy them for cheap IF they have the size you want in their rivet barrels.

I haven't built a car part with rivets but I have done steel cabinets doors and framework. You'll need a rivet gun, usually an air driven model with rivet bits. You first drive the rivet through the two pieces with a backing dolly on the back side of the steel but not touching the rivet, just right next to it. After the rivet is completely seated, you hold the buck against the back side of the rivet and hit the front side with the air gun again. This causes the rivet shank to swell up and fill the whole void of the hole and the back end to mushroom. It is the best way to fasten two pieces of metal together, bar none. However, it is not the quickest or the lightest.

I can take some pictures of my air rivet gun and tips if you'd like.

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 6, 2009, 5:09 pm 
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Rivets come in a zillion different styles and materials. For a few examples, check out Aircraft Spruce at
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/menus/ha/rivets.html
and read a little about the various ones they sell.
[edit] Here is the page I was originally looking for. Lots of good information:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/h ... nrivet.php


As I recall, there are a few characteristics you might want to consider. Some rivets capture the end of the mandrel that stays with the rivet others let it fall off and rattle around. Some will form a liquid tight seal when they are set, others will leak where the mandrel pulls through. Common materials include steel, aluminum and stainless steel. There are rivets that are hybrid - the body of the rivet is aluminum, but the mandrel is steel and can rust. (I think this is the most common type.)

You need to be sure and get the right length rivet for your application. Riveting a sandwich of 1/16" backing plate, 1/8" fiberglass, and 1/16" bracket might require a different length rivet than just attaching a 20ga panel to a 16ga tube.

Keep in mind that for your car you will use hundreds of rivets. There is a big difference in the cost when you can pay from 5 cents to 50 cents (or more) for each rivet.

John


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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 6, 2009, 9:02 pm 
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If you can access both sides you can use a appropriately sized "burr" (washer) on the backside of the hole. You clamp both pieces, drill the hole, rivet goes through from one side, you slip the burr over the rivet from the other side, and you pull the trigger on your rivet gun.

Now if you don't care what the back side looks like you can use an "exploding rivet" to bond two pieces of sheet aluminum. I got a box of them (colored to match my panels) from stock car bodies dot com. They can be used with or without backing washers but will hold better with washers.


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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 6, 2009, 10:53 pm 
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This seems to be fairly decent handbook for many things:
http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/airc ... _handbook/
Chapter 5 has some stuff regarding rivets. I could have sworn there was an A&P manual (or maybe a general aircraft manual?) on the FAA's site that had a really good section on rivets. If I find it, I'll edit this post and add it.

Its probably worth visiting Cherry Aerospace's site as well. They have a ton of blind and solid rivets - their site has a great specs section.
http://www.cherryaerospace.com/

From your post, it sounds like you are looking to use solid rivets from your description of wanting something you can access from both sides. Are you intending to use the panels as a structural member then?

Simply due to the time to buck solid rivets, I wouldn't totally blow off some of the structural blinds out there. Unlike the cheap-o pop-rivets from Home Depot, the structural blinds actually have a solid shank in the middle rather than just a ball that does nothing. Their main disadvantage is they *can* loosen over time.

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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 6, 2009, 11:40 pm 
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Rivets and installation general notes

If you have access to both sides and are installing panels of dissimilar metals, use solid rivets if you can of the AN426-x-xAD and AN470-x-xAD when using 2024-t3 alloy. When using another alloy, select the rivets that match the strength of the alloy. Approx 1.5 the shank diameter should extend beyond the sheets prior to install. Use roughly 3x the thickness of the thickest sheet when selecting rivet diameter. This general rule is derive from the theory that the rivets will fail before the sheet fails. You will need specific data to calculate the bearing strength of a hole in vdifferent alloys and will need to adjust the general formula as required to match the alloy strength with the rivet strength to calculate for different alloys. but for AN470/426AD rivets 3x the thickness is a good starting point.

For example when riveting 2 sheets of .063 2024-t3 use a .187 or "-6" diameter rivet. The grip range is the two sheets and is .125. The rivet requires this length plus 1.5 x its own diameter for proper installation. therefore .125+1.5(.1875)=.406= rougly 6/16, so you would select An AN470-6-6 when riveting. The two head styles are AN470 universal and AN426 100 degree countersink. The AN470 series uses a different size rivet set for each size (-3,-4,-5,-6 etc measure in 32nds, length is measures in 16ths). So for driving an AN470-4 you would need a -4 or 1/8 universal rivet set and an appropriately weighted bucking bar. for 426 head rivets use a flush set.

As mentioned earlier you will need a (proper) rivet gun, not an air hammer. The rivet gun has the control and correct weight of piston to ensure the rivet is properly (not over) driven. The correct weight bucking bar also helps, I never really followed this rule except I knew when the bar would be too light. The size of the gun matters as well. They are measure in the "X" series, 2X, 3X,4X are the common sizes for anything up to 1/4.

For -3 and -4 use a 2x gun
For -3,-4,-5 use a 3x gun
For -5, -6, and -8 use a 4x gun.

I have all three if, you can get away with just a 3X for most of the work. Different manufacturers will have different weight pistons as well so one brand 3X will hit like a Standard 4x.

Get lots of practice driving rivets, going solid is the way to go for lightness, cheapness, strength and reliability. Sometime you have to go blind though.

There are many variations of blind rivets. In Aviation The most most common uses are Cherrymax, HuckMax, Allfast, ETC. Any rivet that is approved for direct solid rivet replacement by the manufacturer is whatever flies. If they want you to use Huck, thats what goes, any deviation then you need to call there engineering department to get approval for another vendors product.

The cherrymax superceeds the cherrylock, which superceeds the Cherry Friction lock, which superceeds the bulbed Cherry lock, All of which never really did as good of a job of the solid rivet, IMHO this is partly due to installers and repair people being lazy or not understanding the tolerances and limitations of blind rivets

The friction lock series retained its mandrel for added shear strength via friction. The Cherrylock , mechanically locks the rivet mandrel into place with a deformable locking collar which is pushed into place by shifting action by the tooling. The downside of this was that each rivet size and head style required its own nose piece along with a very expensive dual action puller. For a full set of heads and the tool, you looking at 5K. The cherrymax was introduced to reduce tooling cost and simplicity, i.e one size head pulls all diameters and head styles. There is also tooling avalaible that will allow you to pull a rivet behind a corner, or under something you would not be able to access normally. This tooling is also very $$$$

In the end I am using AN470 rivets were able, and cherry CR9163 series (friction lock) for there price advantage over the cherrymax series.


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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 7, 2009, 12:09 am 
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Somewhere on this site is a pointer to a manual with description of the proper rivet spacing to use for double rows compared to the thickness of the material and the rivets etc. That same pointer gives you the government standard for brakes on a 5000 pound rolling kitchen trailer and how to feed a platoon with various ingredients. I've just searched, but can't find it... sigh.

I see airframefixr has put in good data while I was making this note...

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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 7, 2009, 7:47 pm 
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Additional Guidance can be found at:

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guida ... enFrameSet

Advisory Circulars are numbered according to the CFR they are related to. In this case, it is AC 43.13-1B, Chapter 4.

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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 8, 2009, 4:22 pm 
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I found a rivet sample I made up a few years ago. There's a few different fasteners on there, inculding a few different styles of solid rivets and cherrymax rivets and two fasteners called Hi-lite's and Hi-loc's. Hi-loc type fasteners combine the benefits of both a rivet and a bolt. They are driven into reamed interference fit holes, and the collar is installed and the wrenching hex breaks off at a predetermined torque value. These are fairly expensive and Ive managed to collect a few over the years, I.e intercept them on the way to the garbage much like the rest of my stash. The installation tooling for these is nothing more than a reamer, brass or aluminum drift, hammer, a wrench and a hex key.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 9, 2009, 12:43 pm 
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Yea im looking at using ones like the solid AN470 for the open areas and a blind rivet for the closed off areas. What are you guys doing to seal the holes on the blind rivets when using them on the floor pans and such? Steel doesnt take well to Michigan weather when not sealed. Just worried about the inside of the tubes being exposed.

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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 9, 2009, 1:16 pm 
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Installing the blinds wet with some kind of sealant should help.

Running a fillet of RTV or some other sealant around the edges of tubes and the aluminum floor will also help keep water from making its way between the two and causing issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 9, 2009, 1:18 pm 
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That would be chapter 6 of the previous link.

Linseed oil goes in the tube and is sloshed around.

Rivets are wet with sealant before installation. The excess is wiped off the outside afterwards. Tape between the aluminum and the steel will minimize dissimilar metal corrosion.

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Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
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 Post subject: Re: Rivets... teach me!
PostPosted: February 9, 2009, 2:18 pm 
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Locost_Johnh wrote:


This was along the lines of what i was looking for, a self plugging blind rivet (the ones on the right). I was looking to run a aluminum rivet with a aluminum shaft (this way the plug is aluminum) for the floor pan. Spacing these every inch, would they be strong enough? My floor is cross braced so yes they would be structural, but not a main structural load. I assume these just require a pop rivet puller.

For other areas that act more as sheer panels i plan to go the soild aluminum route.

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