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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 11:09 am 
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a.moore wrote:
I still don't see why using 4130 is such a no-no.


It's fine but maybe you forgot where you are?....

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mjalaly wrote:

The entire design is budgeted for $8750 (max $9500). That us pretty locost to me. The only thing i am having done out side is the lazer notching, roll bending and final welding, powder coating (free) and anodizing.


and Michael Schumacher gets his cars built locost as well, free in fact - I don't care how much you can build it for, I care how much a member of this community could build it for and it is not a locost proposition.


mjalaly wrote:
I think it might be best to do the gentleman thing here and bow out of this forum. The design/work isnt being well recieved which sucks.



Don't trip over your ego on the way out.


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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 11:23 am 
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Cut it out CR. Considering this is a Locost board that would be the pot calling the kettle black. Being the accepting bunch we are no one has yet to be turned away for their build choice whether it be Locost, EFR, trike, mild steel, 4130, etc. Its also funny because the ERW tubing everyone uses is in the $1.00-$1.50/ft range while 1"x0.065" round 4130 can be had for less than $2.00/ft. It isn't much of an increase considering a typical Locost is at least $5k by the time its plated.
cheapracer wrote:
Don't trip over your ego on the way out.

That is completely uncalled for. Feel free to edit your post.

Mjalay - clever bumpsteer adjustment. The only reason I was asking about the groove orientation is it seems like the steering forces could cause the arm to shift with the way they are oriented now or am I missing something?

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 12:03 pm 
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edited

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You can build the most awesome thing in the world but at some point, an 80yr old man in a crx is probably going kick your butt on the track... don't ask me how I know.


Last edited by mjalaly on December 6, 2011, 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 12:09 pm 
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a.moore wrote:
Cut it out CR. Considering this is a Locost board that would be the pot calling the kettle black. Being the accepting bunch we are no one has yet to be turned away for their build choice whether it be Locost, EFR, trike, mild steel, 4130, etc. Its also funny because the ERW tubing everyone uses is in the $1.00-$1.50/ft range while 1"x0.065" round 4130 can be had for less than $2.00/ft. It isn't much of an increase considering a typical Locost is at least $5k by the time its plated.
cheapracer wrote:
Don't trip over your ego on the way out.

That is completely uncalled for. Feel free to edit your post.

Mjalay - clever bumpsteer adjustment. The only reason I was asking about the groove orientation is it seems like the steering forces could cause the arm to shift with the way they are oriented now or am I missing something?


Yes the steering is moving in that direction but the 4 bolts hold it in postion (in shear). Take a look at this

Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 1:23 pm 
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hell, I have nothing against hicost builds... for me personally this is primarily self built car forum.. and it is oh so easy to drift into hi cost..

I think there is always a potential problem when someone just drops in and starts going carbon this, carbon that, so please, be understandable, there are a lot of folks here that went trough their builds the hard way learning what works or not..

Speaking of your build.. My only suggestion is about the frame... I am no fan of at-om style frames, especially the lower "basket" that holds the passengers... it adds nothing to torsional stiffness, and as I said it would be nice to take a look at your frame FEA, and see it's stiffness vs weight..

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 1:53 pm 
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kikiturbo wrote:
hell, I have nothing against hicost builds... for me personally this is primarily self built car forum.. and it is oh so easy to drift into hi cost..

I think there is always a potential problem when someone just drops in and starts going carbon this, carbon that, so please, be understandable, there are a lot of folks here that went trough their builds the hard way learning what works or not..

Speaking of your build.. My only suggestion is about the frame... I am no fan of at-om style frames, especially the lower "basket" that holds the passengers... it adds nothing to torsional stiffness, and as I said it would be nice to take a look at your frame FEA, and see it's stiffness vs weight..


I completely understand, i do the same thing to people all of the time (other fabricators and engineers). A lot of people don’t understand the complexity of carbon (layup) and the fact that if it is hit right, Not even just right, it will fragment like particle board. That is why the front and rear covers add additional protection for them.

I tried so many approaches to NOT design something like the At-om but for some reason it always came back to that type of layout. And yes i hate the basket too. The At-om uses a full tub which i want to stay away from. It was the best solution to keep a flat underside and hold he passengers, that's it. I am open for design suggestions on this.

The frame ways 230lbs since i cannot get Ø2.5 or Ø2.0 in anything less than .083 wall. I will re-run the simulation since I had to spend 4hrs last night re-notching tubes in solidworks. Since you asked... just a 3point fixed with 1 point dynamic for torsion? I would actually like to get another pair of eyes on it any way.

I promise to post the testing for everyone to see on the arms. If it fails in ANY way.... back to 4130 which i am fine with (actually probably mild so that is fails and doesn’t damage my frame)

thanks kikiturbo. FYI nice welding pic... i just gunked up my mig tip on a practice part a second ago... off to Airgas

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 2:11 pm 
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FYI,

If any of you would like models, let me know. Just PM me and let me know the format. I may not be willing to send every thing out but you can ask and i will see if we can work something out.

Mo

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 2:23 pm 
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for torsion on the frame I use 3 points but not fixed, define them as non movable.. and 1 point with a vertical force on it..
I always use rocker pivot points.. or if you do not have pushrod suspension (and I see you do) use top spring/damper mount..

also, get those roll over hoops vertical + get some support for all four legs of the roll over hoops.. i.e. triangulate the rear bulkhead better..

as for the basket and the frame.. i'd get those lower curved frame tubes lower, straighter, to the lowest frame level, and weld in a straight floor with a couple of nice big X rails across..

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 3:24 pm 
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a.moore wrote:
Cut it out CR. Considering this is a Locost board that would be the pot calling the kettle black.



You asked why the reasons against using 4130, I answered it. I consider this to be a locost board and have always offered locost solutions and generally ignore hicost builds as I will do with this one from here on in.

a.moore wrote:

That is completely uncalled for.


I have a different opinion on that but maybe you missed this line..

"I think it might be best to do the gentleman thing here and bow out of this forum. The design/work isnt being well recieved which sucks".

..The guy is here for a few posts, doesn't get adored and praised enough so is leaving?? - give me a break.


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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 4:21 pm 
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kikiturbo wrote:
for torsion on the frame I use 3 points but not fixed, define them as non movable.. and 1 point with a vertical force on it..
I always use rocker pivot points.. or if you do not have pushrod suspension (and I see you do) use top spring/damper mount..

also, get those roll over hoops vertical + get some support for all four legs of the roll over hoops.. i.e. triangulate the rear bulkhead better..

as for the basket and the frame.. i'd get those lower curved frame tubes lower, straighter, to the lowest frame level, and weld in a straight floor with a couple of nice big X rails across..



Ok. I remember you had some chassis FEA on your build thread so i looked there and i know what you are referring to for set up. Let me put that together and post it.

Yeah i am going to change the basket and roll bar tubes as you suggested, they are good suggestions. The basket tubes are as far down as they will go, as in flush to the bottom of the frame. I am not sure if i can add more without adding more weight but i think i may be able to squeeze some out after the fea. Let me see what i can put together.

Thanks again.

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 5:01 pm 
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I am talking about lowering the bottom side frame rails, making them straighter, and instead of the basket, run a "normal" floor using straight tubing..

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 5:02 pm 
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cheapracer wrote:
...The guy is here for a few posts, doesn't get adored and praised enough so is leaving?? - give me a break.

Just let it go. Some builders get upset by anything other than backslaps even they post on public forums. All you can do is make some popcorn and sit back and watch the show.

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 5:38 pm 
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KB58 wrote:
cheapracer wrote:
...The guy is here for a few posts, doesn't get adored and praised enough so is leaving?? - give me a break.

Just let it go. Some builders get upset by anything other than backslaps even they post on public forums. All you can do is make some popcorn and sit back and watch the show.


No praise necessary, seriously. I might have interpreted the posts incorrectly which if so my apologies. Cheapracer, you have given good suggestions so I will edit my post and hopefully you will have more to give

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 5:46 pm 
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Some insurrance companies will not cover a vehicle with the gas tank in front during normal operation. State Farm wouldn't insure my buggy unless they saw proof that the gas tank was behind me. Does not matter that I can rest my hand on it while I drive, just that it is behind me. Go figure.

Tom

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 Post subject: Re: New Build
PostPosted: December 6, 2011, 5:53 pm 
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Off Road SHO wrote:
Some insurrance companies will not cover a vehicle with the gas tank in front during normal operation. State Farm wouldn't insure my buggy unless they saw proof that the gas tank was behind me. Does not matter that I can rest my hand on it while I drive, just that it is behind me. Go figure.

Tom


I will call and check that.

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