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as far as the ford motor goes, i have a choice of about 10 in my local wrecking yard, the problem is mating it to the vw trans.

there are two basic ways to do this, the formula ford way with a bell housing adapter using the ford flywheel and clutch but the problem is the input shaft of the trans and the clutch needs a spool, these parts are expensive.

the other way is to go the vw route with an adapter from esslinger and at under $400.00 + the clutch looks the cheapest.

if i was building a formula ford, i would have to go that route because of regulations but as it's a 23, i do not.

having decided on the ford, the other question is do i incorperate the cooling lines in the chassis, the lower frame rails are all over the place with coolant running through the right hand frame rail which in the 23 is made of 1 1/2 X 3/4 box with a strip welded to it to attach the floor to and the other side has the oil cooler line in it, the top rails aren't any better with the left hand top tube being 1 1/4 tube for water and the other being for the other oil cooler. pipe.

the question is do i rationalize the tubes of the chassis and do as lotus did with later cars, run the coolant and oil pipes externally? or do i follow the factory drawing and incorporate them in the frame?

whilst on the subject of the frame/chassis, a lot of square or rectangular tube is used (welded) and i would bet that the round was not dom but erw, for a start, dom is not usually used in england either erw or cds is common so do i use dom or cds instead of erw, bearing in mind the amount of square used?

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this story shall the good man teach his son,
and chrispin chrispian shall ne'er go by,
from this day to the end of the world.
but we in it shall be remembered.

Hi John,
The Lotus 23 is one of my favorites. I had a Lotus 51 a lone time ago that had the coolant running thru the frame tubes. I had to change it over to externial pipes because of leakage. So I would recommend against using frame tubes for any fluid.

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Larry from Burien

its a knock off of the lotus 23,..http://www.crossle.co.uk/9salbum/2ndalbum/index.html

Crossle formula fords use spitfire gt6 front uprights and hubs, with a 3.75" bolt circle.

They are built to be light around 1000 lbs or less.

That coolant pipe as the chassis rail thing is Colin chapman optimizing things "make each part do 3 Jobs" Not too practical considering your plan is to use hubs and spindles from a ford thunderbird, that car is 4000 pounds of factory over designed and engineered for hacks to bounce off of parking bumps and concrete curbs.

Remember you must add lightness! I would consider something consistent with your expected finished weight.

F=M*A

i think you've missunderstood what i am doing, the t-bird uprights are for the rear not the front.

i have and will be using spitfire front uprights and spindles with the addition of canley classics hubs and maybe their big brake kit.

because the original 23 rear uprights are very expensive, the rear bearings are suspect and the 23's 6 bolt hub pattern, i had to come up with an upright that would address all of these issues in one swoop so i have created my uprights from the t-bird ally castings with the vw ball/ roller bearing setup in the center, and i've only spent $92.00 on both, although i will have to add an ally hub brake kit from cnc for about $650.00 and a bearing and seal kit for another $60.00 so the rear is all done with ally uprights and light weight brakes for $800.00 or so, compare that to $720.00 for the lotus copies empty.

all of this plus constant velocity joint drive shafts for $50.00 each complete, stock size, new from empi.

that makes four things that my uprights forefill, better than chapman doing three things, i will weigh the hub assembly when it's done with the brakes on and i bet its lighter than the original and stronger.

with regard to concerns about weight of the chassis if i add external cooling pipes, the top tubes of the chassis can go down to 1" round on both sides, the lower tubes can go down to 1" square on both sides and no strip welded to the lower rails for floor attachment as the floor can now be attached to the lower frame rails directly.

the cooling pipes for the radiator and oil cooler can be made of aluminum so i think the weight thing is a non starter to be honest.

_________________
this story shall the good man teach his son,
and chrispin chrispian shall ne'er go by,
from this day to the end of the world.
but we in it shall be remembered.

Anxious to here how the t-bird up rights work out as a method of using a VW transaxle. You really need something robust to mount those bearings and the t-bird stuff is that.

I see the ford hubs and uprights make sense now. They are still for a big V8 car, Maybe you can grind or mill off a few pounds.

We mated a mazda rotary to a Hewland Trans, just had to have a VW/Hewland Center Riveted to the mazda clutch disc for the Hewland input shaft, I think its still the VW spline and diameter, same as formula ford.

Perhaps you could rivet the vw clutch disk center(splined section) to your ford Disk? The local brake and clutch supply shop did it for us.

We used Az brake and clutch, it was a while back but they can make things, more like old fashioned rebuilders.

Lotus 23 is a very cool car, I saw a set of molds available recently, I think the Dentist Mark Brannon who has a original Lotus 23 has molds and he is in the Phoenix area, kennedy adapters has alot of applications as well.

well i don't know how you did it without an adapter to actually bolt the rotary engine to the vw bell housing,

the vw has a register around the rim of the bell to centralize the motor.

the mazda engine has dowl pins to locate it in the mazda trans.

so unless you have some magic glue thats not possible.

as for the clutch i doubt if the mazda clutch will even fit inside the vw bell housing.

we havent even considered the starter location yet.

as i have stated previously, there are only two ways to connect a ford 4 cylinder engine to a vw or hewland trans.

the formular ford regs state that the original flywheel must be used, this requires the ford flywheel to be retained, that in turn requires that the ford clutch is retained the clutch center spline is somewhat erelavent due to the depth of the adapter needed to reach over the clutch and convert the bell housing pattern from ford to vw these vary dependant upon the manufacturer from 2 1/4" to 3 1/2".
the input shaft of a hewland is a special part and was available in several lengths to suit the adapter spacing, this will interchange with the stock vw input shaft as far as the trans is conserned, most are no longer available since the demise of mr. hewland, this also requires the use of a special spool to allow the clutch release bearing to operate the ford clutch. this setup uses the ford starter on the engine side of the flywheel.

the alternative method, used by the sand rail community is using an adapter fom someone like kennedy or esslinger which uses a thick aluminum plate with the correct bolt pattern for the ford, including the dowls, on one side and the vw pattern and perifery register on the other. then they have a vw type flywheel with a special center that will bolt to the ford crank. then the use of a vw clutch that carries the same spline as the vw input shaft to complete the install. this setup uses the vw starter on the transmission side of the flywheel.

so no you cannot just change the center of the clutch plate and bolt it all together.

_________________
this story shall the good man teach his son,
and chrispin chrispian shall ne'er go by,
from this day to the end of the world.
but we in it shall be remembered.

Yes of course there is an adapter, from kennedy, Had to move a couple of holes because the VW/Hewland mounts Upside down in a forumla car due to the dry sumping, lets the crank centerline come down a few inches. You were mentioning not having decided what to do about the clutch. So I guess I didnt mean to skip that part, sorry about that. The sandrail guys solution looks very good, and I have used many kennedy products in the past.

some pictures of the t-bird upright with the vw center[attachment=1]mals cv3 003.jpg[/attachment

look it must be small and light because i'm holding it in my fingers

seriously though, as a belt and suspenders method of fixing, i will put two grub screws in to the casting from the side.

_________________
this story shall the good man teach his son,
and chrispin chrispian shall ne'er go by,
from this day to the end of the world.
but we in it shall be remembered.

What is the material of that up right? It does look as if the mounting lugs could be thinned depending on your mounting scheme.

aluminum, i intend to turn up some bushes for the mounting holes, reducing the size to a 1/2" hole then use hiem joints to attach the upper and lower control arms.
temporarily i am going to leave the vw drum brakes in place until i can afford the light weight brake kit.

_________________
this story shall the good man teach his son,
and chrispin chrispian shall ne'er go by,
from this day to the end of the world.
but we in it shall be remembered.

Would love that for my Mid build,but for that price? And she is not new!

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American 7 5.0 T5
Lotus 15 ish?
914/H6

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Passat_(B2)

The VW Passat or Quantum longitudinal engine and gearbox for the win. Almost any 4 cylinder VW water cooled engine from the last 50 years will fit the box so something like an older 1.6 or 1.8 SOHC Golf GTI engine, later turbo's if you want to die.

Some of the earlier Audi Fox/100 etc are the same running gear.

Stupid price and the rear guards aren't the same either as the car in the original advert.