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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: April 8, 2015, 7:17 am 
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JustDreamin wrote:
You are covering ground that I have mentally covered before... I too would like to have reliable V8 power, great traction, mechanically durable components, and light weight in a streetable package (the holy grail of automobiles!) I haven't figured out how to make it work out. Hoping maybe you can. Here are a few of my thoughts:

I doubt that the Syclone and Typhoon guys will be interested in any T5 hardware. They kill well-built 700R4 automatics with stock and mildly modified Sy's and Ty's. I don't think the T5 will be an improvement for them, since the T5 is probably weaker than what they have and you loose boost while shifting (no load = reduced boost). Swapping to 4L80E's was a big deal a couple years ago (basically the Turbo 400 with overdrive) and 32 spline conversions for the BW4472. AWD + (V8 or turbo V6 power) + traction + full weight Sy or Ty = broken transmissions. The BW4472 will stand up to well north of 800 hp (what horsepower does it take to push a full weight Sy into the 8's on street tires?) but most times the trans won't.

The T56 is available as a 4wd trans from Rockland (I believe they're the only ones at this point). You could do it DIY by starting with a C5 or C6 T56, creating a tcase adapter, and converting the trans to mid shift (not sure if the conversion kit is still available).

But, I think you've identified the Achilles heel of this type of arrangement: The powertrain is really long. BB69 has a custom application that is similar (LS motor to (formerly) C5 auto (now Muncie 4spd) to C5 diff) and it is a pretty long wheelbase without any transfercase and with all the parts close coupled (no driveshaft). Add the tcase and you're way out there. Search for him and you'll find his beast.

If you went front engine AWD, then you have weight bias issues, potentially, and your driver and passenger spaces have to share room with drivetrain parts. Probably gets kinda snug.

Flipping the drivetrain around (flywheel forward) fixes a bunch of problems (drivetrain length for one) but introduces another couple problems, mainly 1.) the drivetrain runs the wrong direction (requiring flipped diffs or similar) and 2.) the BW4472 is 35%F / 65%R split, which when flipped puts the majority of the power at the wrong end. Obviously, both of these are things that would take a bunch of engineering & manufacturing time to rectify (not easy, cheap, or fast).

JustDreamin


For the most part your right about loosing boost between shifts, there are ways around that with the correct engine management. its called anti-lag/no-lift-to-shift. its something used by rally cars. My talon has this as well as stutter box which allows me to launch from a stop with boost(full boost in my case with a standard size turbo).

The biggest problem here is that they put a large shock load into the drivetrain, and even with an astro A-5 build(rated for 575ft/lbs 650hp) i doubt the T-5 will put up with large shock loads for very long when near its upper half rating for power. (also the long mainshaft absorbs a lot of the shock by twisting like a torsion bar to reduce shock loads, something you dont get so much with the 4x4 length mainshaft)

For my build and most builds on this site a built up T-5 should be plenty since the power ratings are generally assuming a car of about 3700lbs and a lighter car will increase the amount of torque the trans and drivetrain will be able to safely handle. Ive always built the drivetrain of my cars to handle twice the power i plan on making and build my engines to handle 20 to 50% more power than i plan on it making. I think this keeps things from being pushed to their limits and leaves room for future upgrades(because we always want more, lmao) I dont plan on drag racing much, and im used to the extra clutch slipping needed to keep the drivetrain and 60fts happy

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PostPosted: April 8, 2015, 8:56 am 
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Aetro,

I agree that for most builds on here a T5 would have a pretty good chance at surviving (nothing is ever 100%). Most folks on here are not looking at the same power range as most hot-rodders (since 500 hp NA from a LS motor isn't all that hard anymore) and they're typically shooting for 1/2 the weight or less, which should all add up to a HUGE difference in drivetrain life expectancy. T5's seem to be hit or miss sometimes anyway (kinda like 10-bolts in 4th Gen Camaros, some go 9's, some go bang in 14 second cars, go figure). I only mentioned Sy's and Ty's because you had mentioned wanting to sell T5 parts to them, and I've spent some time in that community (it's been a few years, however).


Regarding your project, what path are you looking at pursuing?

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PostPosted: April 9, 2015, 6:42 am 
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Im using the project as a learning experience, so im going to design the whole chassis and suspension from scratch, and learn everything i can about what is required. The plan at this point is to design and research for the next 2 years or so, before i actually start buying parts. Even though ive already run into a couple situations where it would have been 10X easier to figure something out if i had the parts in hand to compare or measure lol.

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PostPosted: April 9, 2015, 9:17 am 
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Aetro wrote:
Im using the project as a learning experience, so im going to design the whole chassis and suspension from scratch, and learn everything i can about what is required. The plan at this point is to design and research for the next 2 years or so, before i actually start buying parts. Even though ive already run into a couple situations where it would have been 10X easier to figure something out if i had the parts in hand to compare or measure lol.


If can start collecting the parts, you'll be time ahead, even if in the end you say, "that won't work." My journey with my own Locost is much like you describe, but mechanically MUCH simpler. While doing the chassis design work in software, I built a wooden mock-up to test things out. That has proven invaluable. However, as systematic and cautious as I was, I still get little surprises as I go along. It's pretty difficult (at least for me) to visualize every detail about how such a complex system as a car is going to fit together, even one as simple as a Locost. However, I have not had one "Oh Sh*t" moment where I realized major arrangements were not going to work and I had to cut things up and start some part over.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: April 10, 2015, 5:24 pm 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
Aetro wrote:
Im using the project as a learning experience, so im going to design the whole chassis and suspension from scratch, and learn everything i can about what is required. The plan at this point is to design and research for the next 2 years or so, before i actually start buying parts. Even though ive already run into a couple situations where it would have been 10X easier to figure something out if i had the parts in hand to compare or measure lol.


If can start collecting the parts, you'll be time ahead, even if in the end you say, "that won't work." My journey with my own Locost is much like you describe, but mechanically MUCH simpler. While doing the chassis design work in software, I built a wooden mock-up to test things out. That has proven invaluable. However, as systematic and cautious as I was, I still get little surprises as I go along. It's pretty difficult (at least for me) to visualize every detail about how such a complex system as a car is going to fit together, even one as simple as a Locost. However, I have not had one "Oh Sh*t" moment where I realized major arrangements were not going to work and I had to cut things up and start some part over.

Cheers,


Ive been toying with the idea of making a scale wood model once ive worked out a design on the computer. Im part way through reading your build log(and a couple others, lol) and i think a model would help figure out major interference issues before starting the actual build.(could probably use the computer for this too, but ill decide when i get to that stage i guess)

Im still working on the t-5 to 4472 problem, ive got another idea i think might be an option, but wont be able to find out short of buying the parts and then making the necessary modifications so ill keep it in mind but work off the assumption that im going to have a custom mainshaft made by tony at 5speeds.com, sounds like hell do a oneoff for $500-$700, he said i just need to get him some measurements.

On a seperate note, i stumbled across this article and learned a couple things about wiring harness making things and thought i would share
http://www.lsxtv.com/tech-stories/the-5 ... a-racecar/

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PostPosted: April 14, 2015, 3:00 pm 
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i think ive got a workable design for the inboard brakes. Its just like the solution for the t5/4472 combo, its all off the shelf parts except for the one custom part to adapt the tulip spline into the upright, but if i cant find a solution for that i also have the option of a using a normal CV cup. Ive just started playing with grape and sketchup, ill make a model of the halfshaft as my first project and post it up

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PostPosted: April 20, 2015, 4:50 am 
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While looking for a BW4472 on craigslist i ran across an manual 99 2.2L s10 2wd for $500 and decided to kill 2 birds with one stone. Now i have an initial donor with everything in good condition, and a rear axle to replace the one out of the 2001 s10 i plan on selling to initially finance this project.

After driving 2 hours to pick it up i realized that the chassis was more rusted than i thought(both framerails were disintegrating under the firewall, and one was cracked completely through). I had thought the frame broke from being overloaded with a rust weakened frame and a forward leaf mount broken loose, this was much more dangerous. I took the risk and reinforced the cracked framerail with a steel fencepost and a 2" diameter stick that i wrapped with a ratchet strap binding them together, and another ratchet strap wrapped around the rear leaf mount with another small log and the other end of the steel post. i had brought the straps, wood, and fencepost expecting to bind it together anyway, lol. Though i was worried something would come loose and id end up stranded it worked perfectly, and by an hour into the drive i felt confident enough to do 70 when the highway wasnt rough and made it back without a single problem.

The engine isnt what i had planned, but ill design the chassis to the V8 AWD size for a latter upgrade. Having the transmission on hand will help with figuring out if my second solution for mounting the transfer case will actually work(honestly its a long shot, but i might as well check right?). Best part is that everything only has 100290 miles on it(ive got no idea how the frame rusted so badly while mostly saving the body with so few miles)

Iv started expanding my tool collection and am the proud owner of about half of my wife's grandpa's garage workshop. Of note is a 23" bandsaw, small air compressor and a die grinder im sure is older than i am(so its probably not made in china and will last a long time)

Ill get some pictures up this week and start picking at it this weekend

This is what i plan on pulling from the truck, Let me know any suggestions that may be a good idea.

1. 2.2L engine
2. t5 transmission
3. Engine computer
4. full wiring harness
5. steering colum
6. guages
7. pedals
8. brake master
9. clutch master and slave
10. radiator
11. heater core w/controls and blower
12. windshield wiper motor and mechanism

Possibly the manual window winding mechanism in case i can use that for the final design.

Should i consider the steering rack? ive got a spare mitsubishi rack for a 2001 eclipse, and i may want to switch to an EVO rack in the future for its very fast ratio, and i would assume they are similar dimensions. Ill get some pictures of my random assortment of spare parts and the fleet of cars im slowly collecting.

all in all this will be a huge step forward for the project, depending on how the chassis and suspension design come along this could lead to a large jump forward for my planned time table.

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PostPosted: April 20, 2015, 11:51 pm 
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A couple thoughts...

1. Most locost are midengine, just front midengine. So did you consider something like nissian GTR. Basically use a truck drivetrain with awd intead of a hi\lo transfer case, and move the engine back as fas as possible.

2. Or, and this is much more excotic but been done. Its my undestanding extreme rockcrawler guys do this. Take a fwd engine setup, turn it 90 degrees so axles run front to back. Then custom yokes or adapters to go into differentials.
With this most v8 fwd are autos. But there are conversions to take out torque converters and replace with a standard clutch(used only for full stop and take off from stop, dirt track guys sometimes do this) and manual valve bodies are available. Basically turning an auto into a sequential manual.

Not sure on pricing for number 2 but would be very unique!

I've thought a lot about an awd locost, especially midengine. But it won't be low cost. And really awd in my experience takes away from the driver. So I'm not a fan. Unless its for bad weather.

Also inboard brakes are not better. There is a reason no production car and very few race cars use them. Excessive heat and no air flow for cooling is a big one I believe

Also this was sent from my phone so sorry for spelling or grammer mistakes :)

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mitsu 4g63 powered 442e - viewtopic.php?f=35&t=7317&start=0


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PostPosted: April 21, 2015, 9:51 am 
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Option 2 works great for rock-crawlers, but remember the diff ratios in the (now sideways) gearbox and final drives multiply. You would need REALLY tall final drive ratios to make it work on the street .... (I think it's a neat idea too, only if ....). I think the neat little Palotov (?) gets away with it by running chain drive to front and rear diffs.

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PostPosted: April 21, 2015, 3:34 pm 
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the downsides for inboard brakes are higher rotating mass and aerodynamics when trying to channel enough air to the center of the car to keep them from overheating.
The upsides are a significant reduction of unsprung mass.

Most cars dont use them because its more complex, and reduces fuel efficiency. The front end is where its most useful so front halfshafts are required automatically loosing part of its weight savings. Race cars dont use them because very few are AWD and since the 30's or 40's aerodynamics have dominated racing, first in making them more slippery and now modern cars rely very heavily on downforce.

there are plenty of arguments not to use the AWD and inboard brakes but with the work ill be putting into the chassis and suspension they arnt a whole lot more work to add. Ive already figured out how to do both of them for only a moderate cost increase.

On another note i found out that my newly acquired S-10 came with a nv1500 transmission and not a T5, but they run about the same price, so ill just sell it and buy a t5 separately. If anyone has a good deal on one let me know, not exactly something i want to get from a junkyard if i can avoid it.

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PostPosted: April 22, 2015, 1:22 am 
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With the sideways fwd drivetrain, I didn't even consider gear ratios. Maybe if its a track car it'd still work? But idk. Those rockcrawler and off road guys like really short gears.

As for AWD, i like my cars to be the best driving experience. Not necessarily fastest so its a personal preferance on driving feel and also end goals. I like to need to learn more skill to drive well, just like when on the motorcycle.
Often awd will need less of a learning curve and thereby faster for most us mere pedestrian(non-pro) drivers.

I still don't get the desire for inboards though. You said 'moderate cost'. That's relative but I would think a lightweight aftermarket brake setup like brembos or wilwood would do the same with less hassle. But inboard brakes would be high on the cool and unique factors!

Hopefully all the planning will come to a reality. Sounds super cool however it ends up

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90 talon as old dd turned into donor for the locost
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PostPosted: April 26, 2015, 7:15 pm 
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Another advantage for inboard brakes is that braking torque is taken up by the chassis instead of going into trying to twist the knuckle, it lets the control arms only have to hold the knuckle in place without having to resist the knuckle trying to rotate.

But the main reason for this post...the wife has green-lighted a standard locost build. (using one of my s10s for parts, and the other to finance it) Im looking at it as a practice run because im still going to build my midi, but im hoping i can sell the first locost when i start building the midi. Soooo in the interest of starting this detour of plans i went outside and pulled the whole dash out of the parts s10. Labeled each electrical connection with an ID tag and short description with a matching Tag for the item it connects to. I also made a log of what each id tag connects to and more details on where it is and what its for. This should keep me out of trouble since im terrible with wiring.

The biggest issue was that of the 6 t-50 torx head bolts holding the seats and seatbelts in 4 of them were stuck and i stripped one of them out, sooo dash came out with no problems, but the seats are stuck, lol.

Which chassis should i look at im looking for cheapest build possible. Ill have to get book with the measurements i need

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PostPosted: May 1, 2015, 5:39 pm 
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Well after a couple slight issues with the camera (locating it, then a trip to the store for batterys and finally realizing it didnt have a memory card in it lol) here are some pictures of the fleet. I may have went a little overboard :oops: (the server doesnt seem to like me putting too many pictures in)


Attachments:
File comment: The Mother in law's 75 formula 350
Screaming Chicken.JPG
Screaming Chicken.JPG [ 311.97 KiB | Viewed 3320 times ]
File comment: The Recipient S10
Nice S10.JPG
Nice S10.JPG [ 517.77 KiB | Viewed 3320 times ]
File comment: 03 Evo
Side of Evo.JPG
Side of Evo.JPG [ 541.08 KiB | Viewed 3320 times ]
File comment: My 95 Talon
95 Talon.JPG
95 Talon.JPG [ 551.93 KiB | Viewed 3320 times ]
File comment: Wife's 01 Eclipse
01 Eclipse.JPG
01 Eclipse.JPG [ 509.53 KiB | Viewed 3320 times ]
File comment: The unfortunate focus of my attention
Fresh Donor.JPG
Fresh Donor.JPG [ 609.32 KiB | Viewed 3320 times ]

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PostPosted: May 2, 2015, 7:37 am 
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Ive got most of a spare rear subframe for my talon. I had a wheelbearing going bad but its pretty much impossible to get the halfshaft out of the hub turning the whole job into replacing the hub, bearing, and halfshaft, its a nightmare. So i bought another one and swapped the whole thing in. fixed, :cheers:

This works out for me since after im done with the donor S10 ill have just about everything i need for a standard locost except for the differential to rear brakes. After looking into the different chassis designs available i quickly realized that the Car9 is the obvious way to go. There are a few quirks though, the knuckles extend the upper control arm mount very far up (it actually curves around the wheel and tire and is above the tire)
Attachment:
DSM rear Knuckles.JPG
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Attachment:
DSM Knuckle Side.JPG
DSM Knuckle Side.JPG [ 553.01 KiB | Viewed 3296 times ]


The differential is a 3.545 ratio (i can only assume from the sticker) and has the optional sealed viscus LSD that the DSM's came with (also using this differential allows a easy upgrade to the far better Evo clutch type LSD).
Attachment:
DSM Diff Tag.JPG
DSM Diff Tag.JPG [ 458.19 KiB | Viewed 3296 times ]

Attachment:
DSM Diff.JPG
DSM Diff.JPG [ 657.93 KiB | Viewed 3296 times ]


Since ive already got most of the major components ill need for a running driving car i figured id go with my talon's trusty summer wheels and tires to round out my choices (it'll have to deal with the winters for a while)
Attachment:
17x7 KDW2s.JPG
17x7 KDW2s.JPG [ 319.29 KiB | Viewed 3296 times ]

Attachment:
Stack of KDWs.JPG
Stack of KDWs.JPG [ 374.57 KiB | Viewed 3296 times ]


Ill split off another build thread for this detour project soon since at the moment ive only got the dash out of the donor
Attachment:
Lots o Dash.JPG
Lots o Dash.JPG [ 365.77 KiB | Viewed 3296 times ]


Also on a side note, if your pictures are saved with an apostrophe in the name you get an error when you try to upload :BH:

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PostPosted: July 18, 2015, 8:05 am 
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Im still alive!!!
Well after deciding to move along from figuring out drivetrain to engine options i started looking at small block chevys and fords.
*the ford is easier mount to a t5, and has DOHC and is pretty cheap to get a hold of.
*The Chevy is smaller with higher displacement, lighter and lower center of gravity, but uses cam in block, more expensive and you have to get creative with to mount to a t5.

I decided to take a look at some V6 engines as a possible option for something a bit more lightweight with a requirement of a fairly easy 300hp out of it. The first engine that got my attention was the hyundai G6DJ. Its a 3.8L 350hp all aluminum V6 with all the newest technology out of the genesis. This engine has a few downsides though. Its expensive since its out of one sports car and only since 2011 and its aftermarket is very limited. Biggest issue in my eyes is the lack of tunability of the factory ECU. With such a complicated engine a standalone ecu could prove to be a big headach.

My next idea was to see if this engine had anything in common with the mitsubishi engines that it replaced. That was a big NO. Hyundai took all the best technology they bought from mitsubishi updated it and then put it all into one engine, guess who makes the better engines now? lol

Well I decided to look into the mitsubishi engines and their mivec 3.8 v6 came out in 2006 with 265hp almost 100hp less in only 5 years, but they are known to make 300hp with only intake exhaust and a tune.
One of their old mivec designs made 200hp out of a 2L V6 that shared the same block design. I found they used those same heads on a 3.0 and a 3.5l on a high performance model of the Montero called the Pajero Evolution that made 300hp. I toyed with the idea of getting my hands on a set of these heads, but decided on the newer mivec 3.8 since i can find it in north america. Then i looked up what cars came with these 6G72(3.0L)/74(3.5L)/75(3.8L) V6's and hopped on craigslist to get an idea of what i could expect to pay for a donor. This may have been a bad idea because now i have a 97 Montero sport 3.0L m/t 4x4 and down another $500 :BH:
Attachment:
97 Montero Sport.jpg
97 Montero Sport.jpg [ 32.61 KiB | Viewed 3102 times ]


Its only been in michigan for 4-5 years by way of virginia so its surprisingly rust free and has a new alternator, but thats about it for positive points. The college kid that owned it rear ended someone a couple years back and did a halfassed job making it look right again. An example is a broken radiator bushing/mount that is now made of folded up cardboard, along with the hood he stripped all the paint off of and left to rust(this is the cool thing to do now :roll: ). It has a whole list of other problems ranging from broken leafsprings and grinding halfshaft disconnect to one non-working power window and no known timing maintenance. Things were only fixed if they kept it from being driven. Because of this the project finances are going toward maintenance for a bit but it is more of the same since some of the other vehicles have also required maintenance since my last post.

Plans have changed because of my impulse buy and realizing i cant build a chassis in the open in my dirt driveway(pretty much given up on removing the mother-in-law's car from the garage). So the plan now is to build the T5 to BW4472 combo and put it into the montero then to do the engine swap somewhere down the line. Then once i have the whole drivetrain from engine to axles ill put together a frame for it all to be transplanted into. Im hoping ill have the lack of workspace figured out by that stage. I also bought a BW4472 off ebay because it was nearly impossible to get measurements or any other information on the internals, but i havn't torn it down yet. Im also going to keep an eye out for a locost chassis someone didnt finish in a year or 2 to install all the donor s10 stuff into in a quick and ugly fashion.

The junk S-10 has been stripped and junked, but after taking all the parts i wanted off of it i only had 820lbs of truck to take to the scrappers, lol and the good S-10 is almost ready to have the donor's axle installed.

Ill post pictures of the donor being chopped up as soon as i find my camera again

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