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PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 9:16 am 
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Spend some time at vintage races and you will see many well prepared 914-6's blowing the doors off of equally well prepared 911s of the same vintage and class. You can watch the 914s out corner the 911s and decide for yourself why that is.


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PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 10:13 am 
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WelderLee wrote:
Spend some time at vintage races and you will see many well prepared 914-6's blowing the doors off of equally well prepared 911s of the same vintage and class. You can watch the 914s out corner the 911s and decide for yourself why that is.



Thank you for your advice.
My guess is that on a subject like this (and many others) personal opinions can be argued until the cows come home.
I was aware of of all these red buttons down here when I wrote my thread.
I have been on this list for more than 10 years and I would say that to be able to argue even the most obscure technical details is.... very much part of the... FUN. :cheers:


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PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 10:27 am 
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phil wrote:
WelderLee wrote:
Spend some time at vintage races and you will see many well prepared 914-6's blowing the doors off of equally well prepared 911s of the same vintage and class. You can watch the 914s out corner the 911s and decide for yourself why that is.



Thank you for your advice.
My guess is that on a subject like this (and many others) personal opinions can be argued until the cows come home.
I was aware of of all these red buttons down here when I wrote my thread.
I have been on this list for more than 10 years and I would say that to be able to argue even the most obscure technical details is.... very much part of the... FUN. :cheers:


Thank you. I was getting a bit over-serious about the topic. You'd think we were talking politics or something (No! please no!) :cheers:


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PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 11:40 am 
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carguy123 wrote:
And front mid is not marketing speak.

Mid simply means the engine is placed within the wheelbase not outside of it. Front or rear mid is only a convenient way to differentiate engine placement. Both are mid.
It is marketing speak. You know how I know? Because when Nissan popularized the term by going to great lengths to use it as part of the marketing campaign on their "FM" (Front Mid) platform with the release of the 350Z, they apparently got to define it however the hell they wanted. Thus they biased their definition of it purely for their own benefit, rather than using the logical engineering definition. In the years since, the masses have bought into this blatant marketeering ploy hook, line, and sinker.

Their marketeers claimed that front-mid means that the entirety of the engine sits behind the front axle center line. This is necessarily incorrect if there is to be any consistency of definitions. It was however convenient in that it fits with their layout while excluding as many other competitors cars as possible. The correct definition would be based on the location of the center of mass of the engine relative to the front axle center line. That's how the much longer established (rear) mid vs rear layouts have always been differentiated. Otherwise, any transverse (rear) mid layout with a V engine would become a "rear engine" car if one of the valve covers so much as grazed the rear axle centerline threshold. Which would obviously be completely ridiculous.

I'll buy into "front-mid" being a legitimate descriptor as soon as the rest of the automotive world buys into using the logical engineering definition for it...Until then, it's is literally nothing more than an unfortunately defined marketing term that sadly took on a life of its own.


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PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 12:47 pm 
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It was in use a LONG time before the 350Z

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PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 12:49 pm 
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carguy123 wrote:
It was in use a LONG time before the 350Z


Perhaps by some, but not in the common vernacular.


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PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 6:57 pm 
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I like rear engine cars, too. I like the way you can hang the back end out so easily. Tons of fun. Of course I'm lucky to be alive today.


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PostPosted: September 29, 2017, 10:16 pm 
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kreb wrote:
carguy123 wrote:
It was in use a LONG time before the 350Z


Perhaps by some, but not in the common vernacular.



Let's see, Mazda used it on their RX7s for decades prior to this

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PostPosted: September 30, 2017, 12:10 am 
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Ok, so replace Nissan with Mazda, and 350Z with RX7 in what I said above, and my statements still stand. Regardless of whose marketeers came up with this :BS: definition, doesn't change the fact that it's improperly defined for purely for marketing purposes...Either that or, unbeknownst to the entire automotive world, the Lamborghini Miura, Ferrari 308/328, Pontiac Fiero, Noble M12/M400, and Lotus Evora (among others) are all actually rear-engined cars. :roll:

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PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 9:47 pm 
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It's not improperly defined. The situation is different in the front of the car.

In the rear of the car, the engine is bolted to a transaxle that is either behind or in front. On top wouldn't be practical, and it simply doesn't happen. Cars are clearly either rear or rear-mid. So the engine weight is either in front of the axle or behind it. Simple.

If you used the same definition for the front as is used for the rear, you'd have chaos. Lots of rwd cars have the engine placed pretty squarely over the front axle; some of them would fall into one category and some into the other with no discernible difference in balance. Should you be able to change from front to front-mid by going to a lighter alternator and a heavier flywheel?

On the other hand, some front-engined cars have the engine set back substantially (compromising other things) in order to achieve balance. That's what a front-mid engined car is. The current, popular definition is very good because it divides actual production cars pretty cleanly into distinct categories.

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PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 9:58 pm 
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It's a poor descriptor because front, mid and rear are fundamentally different configurations, whereas Front-mid could be a front that gets pushed a single inch to the rear, if that inch puts it into the other category. That's not a fundamentally different configuration, that's a motor that got pushed an inch. So its not like its a lie or something, it's just weak. If the engine configurations were planets, front-mid would be Pluto,


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PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 10:04 pm 
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I much rather hear a discussion about how many pixies can be put on the head of a pin. In that case, at least the outcome matters.

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PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 10:07 pm 
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More importantly, how many pixies does it take to equal one trunk monkey?


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PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 10:24 pm 
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That's why it's important that it's a substantial engine setback. It makes a huge difference, like a 10 percent change in weight distribution (50/50 vs. 60/40) Not only does the engine get moved back, so does the transmission. Other things have to be compromised in order to move the engine back that far. It is a significant packaging problem, and it pays off with dramatically improved balance. It changes the balance of the car as much as going from rear engine to rear-mid.

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PostPosted: October 1, 2017, 11:42 pm 
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So Phil, if your interested I think you can make a neat rear engine locost with 4 wheel drive from Subaru parts. I had some drawings at one point. Oddly one issue is that unless you stretch something the wheelbase comes out really short. Which at least means you have design room to play around with. Maybe a fuel cell behind the passengers.

One thing is the rear engine makes shift linkage easier.

With a good bit of seat time in a traditional longitudinal mid-engine I like the handling and don't see a real advantage to going rear engine unless you want the 4 wheel drive you could get with Subaru. For average street cars they are not supper practical, but for our purposes I think they work just fine.

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