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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: February 1, 2019, 12:21 am 
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zetec7 wrote:
^^^That would be my thinking...and the reason I built in 6-point harness anchor points, but installed 3-point DOT-approved shoulder harnesses (i.e., standard street-legal car equipment) for street use.

There are jurisdictions in which anything other than such street-legal belts are illegal for street use. Aside from the convenience aspect, I also considered the insurance liability issue. If you were in a collision in your car, and were injured, I would expect that any insurance company worth its salt, on learning your car wasn't equipped with street-legal safety equipment, would be very quick to try to reduce or deny your claim for injuries. Kind of like riding a motorcycle without a helmet in a state where helmets are mandatory, crashing, and sustaining a head injury. I doubt any insurance company would want to pay out.

Such safety & liability issues aren't to be taken lightly - they can affect the rest of your life...



Disregarding the safety issue and focusing only on the legal points, I'd like to bring up the following dissenting opinion. I registered under the new-at-the-time SEMA rules. Illinois was an early adapter. My car was registered as a 1960 Lotus "Custom Vehicle" (A.K.A. a replica of a 1960 Lotus Seven). It was titled as a 1960 model year and said so on the state issued title. Being SEMA based, I was required to meet the minimum safety and equipment requirements of that 1960. Seat belts were not a requirement for any vehicle in 1960. If I were to drive with racing belts, which I did for a while, it would be "legal" just as no belts at all would be legal. I say this on the basis of if seat belts are not required, DOT approved belts could not possibly be a requirement. Even of I were to drive in another state that did not have a SEMA registration path, they have to accept the equipment required by my state. I also believe that insurance requirements of a 1960 vehicle would follow suit of only requiring 1960 equipment. That is just my opinion.

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PostPosted: February 1, 2019, 2:32 am 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
Well, I was just putting out a word of caution, something to think about. Certainly, in my jurisdiction, seatbelts can be deleted in the ground-up restoration of a car titled prior to seatbelt legislation, but in the case of a vehicle produced after the legislation came into place (around 1961 in Canada, as I recall) they ARE not only mandatory for the vehicle to be titled, but also for insurance in my province.

The lack of appropriate, DOT-approved belts is grounds for reduction or even denial of the injury portion of a claim in the event of a collision.

I am very certain that many other jurisdictions have the same requirements. I’m merely suggesting that this is something that needs to be thought out before deciding.

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Last edited by zetec7 on February 1, 2019, 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: February 1, 2019, 8:17 am 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
(snip) They say prayer helps. I hope their right. :ack:

Cheers,


Installing the divine intervention option always helps....

G'03, MDiv. Seriously, I have a seminary degree... and will sell it for what I still owe on it...

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PostPosted: February 1, 2019, 11:57 am 
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I can say that when my car was inspected, my Chinese 5-point seatbelts were installed. I was there during the inspection. They didn't even glance at much of the car's equipment. Even though there was a checklist, they did not perform a lighting test, no horn test, no braking test. No such inspection. They were interested mainly in serial numbers on the engine and where to install the VIN. As you say, different places use different criteria.

From a short search, there are 15 states that allow a reduction of coverage (search for "comparative fault" or "seatbelt defense") if not wearing a seatbelt while driving. Fortunately, in my state, it is not permitted.

From: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia ... claim.html

Quote:
A few states follow a much harsher rule known as "contributory negligence." In these states, an injured person's own negligence -- even the slightest amount -- negates their right to recover anything at all from other at-fault parties. But in these states, a car accident claimant's failure to wear a seatbelt usually can't be used as evidence of negligence.)


Hagerty Insurance never inspected the car before issuing insurance and there was no wording in the policy about Seat belts at all. Either installed, or use of.

From a purely safety point of view, I agree that the use of seat belts and/or harnesses are a good idea. For a practical point of view, it is difficult for an individual to keep up with changing laws in their own state, let alone other locations.

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PostPosted: February 3, 2019, 7:05 pm 
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geek49203 wrote:
. . . Installing the divine intervention option always helps. . . .

Well, Tim, I think my wife has a copy of "Jesus Take the Wheel" by Carrie Underwood that we could play during drives. Would that cover it? :wink:

And, now, switching back to the secular side, we have this for California:

Under our SB100 process (specially constructed vehicle regulations) mine will be registered as a 1963 Lotus 7 replica. Our vehicle code pretty much requires only the original equipment, safety or otherwise, required at the time of manufacture. It passes the specifics of seatbelts off to Federal standards, which I assume is DOT (Department of Transportation).

Seatbelts were not required in California until January 1, 1964 (it wasn't a law that you actually wear them until 1986 - WTF?). So, it looks to me like the standards don't apply, at least in my case, to my Locost. That does not mean I will be dumb enough to leave them out, however. But it looks like the DOT/Race Car legality logic does not apply.

I kinda like the idea of a dual belt (DOT for street, race car for track) system, but I'm not sure it is workable. I've got the one 5-point race car setup, so it will go in first on the drivers side. Maybe DOT 3-point, retractable with a supplemental submarine belt on wifeys side, if possible?

Has anyone seen submarine belts used outside of race car applications?

Cheers,

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PostPosted: February 3, 2019, 9:51 pm 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
[(snip)

Seatbelts were not required in California until January 1, 1964 (it wasn't a law that you actually wear them until 1986 - WTF?). So, it looks to me like the standards don't apply, at least in my case, to my Locost. That does not mean I will be dumb enough to leave them out, however. But it looks like the DOT/Race Car legality logic does not apply.


How did you get your state to say that Locost is a 1958-ish vehicle? My state is putting 2019 "hot rod" rules to mine...

My elderly memory says that seat belt usage laws only became common when 1) the alternative was the 1980's "attack belts" and 2) the air bag made not wearing a belt pretty iffy. And of course, seat belt laws are great things for cops to use to pull folks over tht look iffy....

Lonnie-S wrote:
I kinda like the idea of a dual belt (DOT for street, race car for track) system, but I'm not sure it is workable. I've got the one 5-point race car setup, so it will go in first on the drivers side. Maybe DOT 3-point, retractable with a supplemental submarine belt on wifeys side, if possible?

Has anyone seen submarine belts used outside of race car applications?

Cheers,


And that will work great if 1) you're happy doing the 5-point thing at the start of a pleasure drive thru the countryside and 2) you're happy not being able to move around when you get a cramp in the leisurely drive, etc and 3) you're understanding that there potential problems if you're doing that and not wearing the HANS. Kinda like understanding that a roll bar might have its hazards if you're not wearing a helmet, etc.

Of course the submarine belt is used outside of race car applications, lots of cafe-racers have 5-points. Can you convince your female significant other that she really should put that thing on, and that the ride she'll be taking will be that hazardous? If so, wondering if she wouldn't rather drive the thing!!?!?!?? You dating Danica? Simona? Sabine? (I've met 2 of the 3)

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PostPosted: February 4, 2019, 1:02 pm 
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@geek49203

We don't get lucky with much as far as DMV stuff goes in California. But, it is being built as a replica vehicle, and there are allowances for that.

I'm going to keep the 5-point capability for the driver's side at least. I like the idea of being really secure with multiple shoulder straps and the submarine belt in an open top car.
Attachment:
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I will look into more compliant belts for that setup, however. In the mean time, I'll just avoid hard front-end collisions. :wink:

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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