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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 9, 2017, 5:06 pm 
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Location: meadview arizona
obviously people haven't read my post.

i did say at the start of this that Arizona was a non inspection state so the check light is not a problem, i even said that when i move to Florida that is also a non inspection state.

i am not using a boost relief valve which you would have known if you had read my post, that would be an enormous air leak so nothing would be in any shape or form calibrated, i am using a diverter valve and no it won't over heat the supercharger as all the current manufacturers except Mercedes use the same system with no trouble, the supercharger is just cycling when the diverter is open.

what fuel pressure reference line, the fuel pressure is constant at 45lbs at this time but may change in the future.

when you know how to change the maf sensor specifically the max air multiplier and the max volts of the sensor limit in the pcm, then you will understand a little more than you do now.

the barometric pressure is sensed by the map not the maf and i don't have egr or the timing changes associated with it, its great living in a non inspection state, if one thing sets the mil, then you might as well have it on for a lot of things, right now its on due to a readiness monitor for the tumble flaps.

instead of saying i must do this and i can't do that, think of ways that this can be done simply.

if you think i would not use a air/fuel meter to adjust calibrations suggests to me that you have tried without one and screwed something up.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 9, 2017, 6:41 pm 
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john hennessy wrote:
not speed density, if you had chosen to read my post you would know that but i guess you didn't read anything so until you do read the post stop commenting.

and just a point about comments, if you think you know more, please say what you know so we can all know what you know or just don't comment put your money where your mouth is, don't just say that i'm doing it all wrong, i have asked for you to explain why i should do it differently but no answers were forthcoming.

this is directed at Kurt and Laminar, do either of you know anything about Ford EEC-V engine management?
if you do tell me.

you have no idea what i have or haven't done, know or don't know, just like i have no idea what you know because you won't say

i will find out if it works when it's done, i don't like to post things like the above but really?

in fact i don't think i'll post about this any more as it's clearly over your heads!


What? I made half of the first 10 posts in this thread, every one of them directly answering all of the questions you had. Every time you continued to misunderstand how engines even work, I patiently explained everything. Then you lash out and accuse me of not reading what you're saying?

Best of luck. :roll: I hope your engine tuning skills are better than your reading comprehension.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 9, 2017, 6:59 pm 
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Location: Duxbury, MA USA
I was following this post till it got snippy...

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 9, 2017, 7:42 pm 
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Me too.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 9, 2017, 9:01 pm 
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My point is, if the check engine lamp is on for fuel mixture codes, the PCM is going to *ignore* the upstream O2 sensors and revert to the base fuel maps. That would be bad.
Also, if you *do* have a 4 wire Tmap, it has nothing to do with fueling, other than an altitude check on startup.
My personal feeling is what you are attempting might work fine, since you plan to keep boost at 5 psi. there is a bit of headroom in most maf cars. You *really* need to keep the check engine light off if you can, though.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 10, 2017, 2:27 pm 
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Laminar,

sorry if i got under your collar some what, what you posted is of interest.
yes i understand that a tune is required and am more than capable of doing that.

i do find it harsh that you would say something like "misunderstand how engines even work" if you have been where i've been and done what i've done i think you would change your mind about that statement.
for may years performance engines were my profession.

my original post sounded naive somewhat and that was intentional as i did not want to get into areas where the average reader would not understand, not wishing to "run before walking", the idea was to build it and modify it until it worked step by step, explaining in detail why each change from stock would be required not just jump in with a bunch of stuff from the get go with a lot of cash, that, you and others seemed to think was an absolute necessity and i would be wasting my time with anything but, well i know i'm getting on in years but i think i have the time to spend on this project

all of your statements may be correct but how relevant are they in this application, if i had started with a megasquirt and E85, controlled my fuel/air ratio with a map sensor, ran the boost through an intercooler and controlled boost with a dump valve then i dare say you could have been of great assistance but that's like saying " if i wanted to go there i wouldn't start from here".
sounds very turboish to me

instead, it might be better to explain how my factory pcm handled the modifications and what areas needed to be modified to suit by the addition of a tune rather than "throwing the baby out with the bath water" and get a new baby because the fist one was the wrong gender, it may require exactly that and if we reach that point where the factory pcm cannot be modified to the extent needed that will certainly be an option.
who knows whether my child born of satan's seed could be a doctor or a lawyer or if he or she will be quite happy stacking shelves at the supermarket but not be cashier material.

Rick,
thank you for your comments, you seem to understand the air/fuel scenario and the critical nature of it, i do intend to avoid any conflicts with that but the EEC-V will set a check light for many other reasons apart from fuel like no power steering pressure so i will keep an eye on it with the addition of an air/fuel meter and a wide band.
as a mater of interest my map sensor is indeed a 4 wire, and in an earlier post i posed this very question.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 11, 2017, 1:02 am 
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john hennessy wrote:
all of your statements may be correct but how relevant are they in this application, if i had started with a megasquirt and E85, controlled my fuel/air ratio with a map sensor, ran the boost through an intercooler and controlled boost with a dump valve then i dare say you could have been of great assistance but that's like saying " if i wanted to go there i wouldn't start from here".
sounds very turboish to me


Reread what I wrote. I offered up options that didn't include a MAP sensor, and I even explained what Kurt meant by his post when you lashed out at him.

Quote:
instead, it might be better to explain how my factory pcm handled the modifications and what areas needed to be modified to suit by the addition of a tune
...
it may require exactly that and if we reach that point where the factory pcm cannot be modified to the extent needed that will certainly be an option.


You mention the "addition of a tune." In modern terms, that means you're purchased a tuning device and tune from a vendor to be loaded onto your factory ECU. These usually run at least $500.

I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're not planning on doing this, but instead you're looking for a way to hack into the signals feeding the ECU and try to get it to run the engine properly. You need more than a few resistors, some wires, and some solder to trick a modern ECU into doing something it doesn't want to.

One could build a circuit to amplify the voltage signal between the MAF and ECU so that the ECU believes more air is coming so it feeds in extra fuel. But how will you deal with ignition timing? Inlet air temperature and associated protection? Knock detection?

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Last edited by Laminar on November 11, 2017, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 11, 2017, 2:21 pm 
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thank you everybody for your comments,

i can see that i'm out on my own with this so will do due diligence and hopefully will report back when competed.

lets hope this will be sooner than later and without the need for a new engine.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 12, 2017, 8:36 am 
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John, not exactly on your own. As the politicians are wont to say, "Our thoughts and prayers are with you". :cheers:

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 12, 2017, 2:03 pm 
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Laminar wrote:
I'm going to go ahead and guess that you're not planning on doing this, but instead you're looking for a way to hack into the signals feeding the ECU and try to get it to run the engine properly. You need more than a few resistors, some wires, and some solder to trick a modern ECU into doing something it doesn't want to.

One could build a circuit to amplify the voltage signal between the MAF and ECU so that the ECU believes more air is coming so it feeds in extra fuel. But how will you deal with ignition timing? Inlet air temperature and associated protection? Knock detection?


There is no amount of fooling an ECU that will work if the injectors are not big enough for the total power output.
Injector size juggling will need a balance in MAF signal to maintain a proper AF ratio.
Different MAFs or changing the housing size to modify the MAF signal are commonly used.

An exercise in head banging with no sure solution, unless you have some serious experience to draw from I would MegaSquirt it.
Also I would not use the MAF, I would tune it on Speed Density.
Proper injector sizing would still be needed.
In Oregon I am able to get MegaSquirted Pre-OBD2 (pre-1996) vehicles passed through emissions testing.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 13, 2017, 1:06 am 
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Bent Wrench wrote:
There is no amount of fooling an ECU that will work if the injectors are not big enough for the total power output.
Injector size juggling will need a balance in MAF signal to maintain a proper AF ratio.
Different MAFs or changing the housing size to modify the MAF signal are commonly used.

An exercise in head banging with no sure solution, unless you have some serious experience to draw from I would MegaSquirt it.


100% agree

Quote:
Also I would not use the MAF, I would tune it on Speed Density.


The turbo Duratec Focuses all seem to stick with the MAF. If you're going standalone, Speed Density seems to be the way to go.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 16, 2017, 9:39 am 
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BBlue wrote:
John, not exactly on your own. As the politicians are wont to say, "Our thoughts and prayers are with you".
Yep, just don't ask for money! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: November 30, 2017, 6:11 pm 
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as promised,

i built all the parts, intake (vacuum) manifold, boost manifold, adapted the cooper 's' by-pass valve to open when signaled by the boost by adding another vacuum chamber configured to push when boost signal is at 5psi and open when manifold vacuum is present.

purchased an air/fuel meter to see what was happening this also shows my boost and operates a solenoid to limit the boost, not cheap by any means but does the job of several components cost $340.00.

the drive belt took for ever to get right but it's now correct.

i still need to connect the iat sensor to the original wires in the maf sensor as i have located one in the boost manifold and i will need a new throttle cable as it has become stiffer i think due to it running a different path than previously.

so guess you would like to know if i have been lucky or do i have a grenaded engine?

i have an air/fuel ratio of 14.7 to 1 at idle and light throttle and it idles at 800 rpm + or -, the idle is smooth. the tps is closed and it goes into closed loop.
the boost comes in at around 2000 rpm, the by-pass valve dumps the boost into the vacuum manifold at around 3000 rpm.at 5psi and the air/fuel ratio at boost is 11.8 to 1 at anything over zero vacuum/zero boost.
after an hour of running, the blower is quite warm to the touch but not hot.
engine temps and oil pressure are all normal.
two drive cycles have been logged in the pcm, we have three codes set, two for the intake air flaps which are not there anymore and one for the egr valve malfunction again disconnected, no other codes set or pending.
the only down side was that i had to mount the air/fuel gauge somewhere and i didn't want to cut a hole in the dash so i made a periscope gizmo to fit in one of my cup holders so now my passenger will have to hold their drink.

oh yes it does go like shite off a shovel to use an old English expression.

so miscelanious parts like the belt, iat sensor and plug, hose and clips, gasket paper and the wide band/ air/fuel/ boost limiter gauge kit from innovative plus some paint and supercharger oil and odd pipe fittings brings the total up to around $850.00.

before you go wild, i am still investigating what the ignition curve does so i will report on that in the future, i can read it with my scanner.

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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: December 2, 2017, 8:53 am 
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John, congratulations are in order! But I'm wondering about the boost pressure (late) and boost AFR (rich). Are they what you want and are they adjustable?

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: supercharging
PostPosted: December 2, 2017, 7:57 pm 
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Bill,

under hard acceleration the boost comes in much quicker and so does the boost cut off.
under normal cruising in high gear (fifth) it teeters on no vacuum no boost at about 2000 rpm at 55-60 mph and if trying to keep your speed when you come to a hill it goes into boost.
i could move this point up or down by changing the pulley size but i have no plan to do so.
i guess that if there is no vacuum and no boost that i am at the point of 100% VE.

as far as rich under hard acceleration the a/f ratio number drops to 11.8-1, likewise if i am cruising and press the throttle. the richness under boost is about where i want it and so it seems is the "tip in"

however, if i am doing 20 mph in fifth gear and press the throttle hard, i suspect it will ping but hard to hear in an open car hence my statement about the spark curve, even with the hood off and i have a knock sensor, i have noticed this occur in many stick cars though.

what i did here though was the tips of my cooling fan touching the radiator shroud due to it being plastic and it flexes must have been doing this since i built it but i will check the fan clutch just in case.

i will have to take the blower off again because there is an oil leak from the front seal so a rebuild is called for, just the snout and the needle bearings as the rotor plate assembly is good and while i'm in there i will change the coupling which is the old spring type for a plastic/fluid one.

if i need to address the timing curve, or the fuel, i will need to add a Tweecar or Quarter Horse which can be programmed with a lap top.

i suspect that the original install in the ranger (being a heavy truck) has aided the factory maf calibration somewhat as if you have ever driven a 2.3 duratec ranger you will know it takes a lot of throttle to get the thing to accelerate.

at this time i have NO gimicy devices connected to the system to trick the pcm and no tuning has been done to the stock pcm, it is a 104 pin Ford EEC-V with a CAC1 tune.

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