LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently March 29, 2024, 2:28 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: February 11, 2016, 12:01 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 8037
Another solution for typical fuel tanks without baffles, sumps, or pumps.

The reservoir keeps the high pressure pump fed during cornering where the low pressure carb pump feed may pickup air. Any return fuel fills the reservoir first. Low pressure pumps, particularly the solenoid type, are much less sensitive to picking up air momentarily. The low pressure pump should run all the time to ensure the high pressure pump never runs dry even though the low pump is only necessary under certain situations; otherwise, just a hose to the reservoir from the tank would suffice.

The reservoir is under little to no pressure. Worst case for pressure would be idling, with a high return flow, and a restrictive overflow to the tank. The overflow should be a larger hose to help ensure that doesn’t happen.

Ford used this same system on trucks and vans in the 80s and 90s. The reservoir shown is for a late 80s ranger and is designed for 5/16” and 3/8” nylon line fittings, but those fittings can have the nylon cut off the barbs to use rubber lines and clamps. There is a replaceable filter in the bottom and the mounting bracket is built in.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 11, 2016, 12:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: April 1, 2010, 10:26 am
Posts: 564
For $395 you can buy a setup to do this, they are common for the vintage guys that want to EFI there V8 but don't want to run return lines or add a high pressure pump.

http://fitechefi.com/default.asp.pg-GoE ... mandCenter


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 11, 2016, 12:32 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 8037
For that kind of money I could buy the whole truck. :lol:

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 11, 2016, 12:49 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 6410
Location: SoCal
The above diagram is how I set up my mid-engine Mini, "Kimini", and it worked great. The only issue I had was mounting the Facet pumps on a bulkhead panel drove me nuts from the incessent knocking. I eventually had to unbolt them entirely and let the hoses support them to reduce the noise.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains
Both available from https://www.lulu.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 11, 2016, 1:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: May 2, 2009, 1:03 pm
Posts: 1389
Location: The Humid State of North Carolina
VW addressed this issue in the 90s for some unknown reason. To my knowledge they have never had starvation issues and at one time or another I have owned nearly every FI car they have made from Fuel Infected 74 Super Beetle up to the Mk4 Jetta and I've never understood the need for the twins in regular street cars.

VW usually used 2 pumps to correct the issue. One residing in the tank and the other mid-way between tank and engine. We can't use their in-tank for most installs but Bosch thought the years has created some damn fine stand alone pumps that will take it's place.

The Bosch "044" pump is my go to for primary fuel. At 80GPH@72psi it's a pretty hard pump to beat for the buck. They can be sourced in almost any junkyard off most any Euro auto. Plus of that is that you get whatever mounting assembly they used, which can range from simple bracket to foam enclosed. They used foam as they can be a bit noisy, but a good running unit under light load just hums.

https://www.allgermanmotorsports.com/product/bosch-044-electric-fuel-pump

Now even with those specs, fuel starvation was a concern, so VW went and added a secondary fuel pump with an integrated header tank! The pump is actually embedded into the tank. Basically it's a "044" without the outer shell in a small plastic tank. It's self contained with all the fittings you'd need to plumb up any engine and tank.

Image

I put the primary with a 1/2 intake hose right beside the tank and the secondary is under the battery at the front of the car. Between the two, unless I go on a skid pad joy ride, should be able to handle any cornering I might do.

Total cost for the pair? $25 Not starving for fuel.. Priceless.

Cheers!

KS

_________________
Check out Firearm Finishes & Coating for options to ceramic coat your Locost parts. Hundreds of stock or custom colors including Chrome and Clear Coating options now available! High Temp options for hot bits!! Plastics too!!

Never become a pessimist. A pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.-Robert A. Heinlein


Last edited by botbasher on February 11, 2016, 1:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 11, 2016, 1:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: May 2, 2009, 1:03 pm
Posts: 1389
Location: The Humid State of North Carolina
Here's a nice little read about fuel pumps... both real and faux.

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/1404-fuel-pump-shootout/

The specs on the "044" pump are pretty stunning given that you can find them in anything from GMC trucks to Porsches to MBZ Diesel cars. It's a pretty versatile pump. I sourced mine out of a MBZ 300SE that had twin pumps. Sold the second and paid for the trip, the pumps and lunch! :D

Image

This is a series set up. The bottom is the primary. It feeds the upper which feeds the motor. If you just hook it up and run it, it'll shoot fuel 20+ft. Of this I know!! :twisted:

K "fire...heehhe" S

_________________
Check out Firearm Finishes & Coating for options to ceramic coat your Locost parts. Hundreds of stock or custom colors including Chrome and Clear Coating options now available! High Temp options for hot bits!! Plastics too!!

Never become a pessimist. A pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.-Robert A. Heinlein


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 11, 2016, 3:48 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 8037
Thanks for posting that Botbasher.

Ford or VW would work for me.

I probably don't need to tell you that BSFC is grams fuel to kilowatt hour and not pounds per hour for hp but nice to see how the "fake" pumps are holding up. My little ranger with a 250 or so hp 5.0l has a carb with an external 15gph 4 psi carter P60504 gerotor I've been very satisfied with for the past 10 years it's been on there. Super quiet even now, even though it must load up somewhat since it is constantly running and without a return (which is the way it was designed to be used).

The Ford system is about $35 for a new high pressure pump not including a bracket, around $60 for a new reservoir, and those little noisy box pumps (like KB58 described) are around $20 I think? I've not bought one in a long time.

I found the vw pump case is still available new but didn't see how much.

EDIT: My pump is actually only 15gph, but the carb bowl keeps it from going lean. EFI would need a good bit more or an accumulator.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


Last edited by Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F on February 11, 2016, 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 11, 2016, 4:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: May 2, 2009, 1:03 pm
Posts: 1389
Location: The Humid State of North Carolina
Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
I found the vw pump case is still available new but didn't see how much.
Probably more than is reasonable to pay for it!!! It's VaG! :roll:

They can be had in great condition from many yard donor cars. That pic is from a GMC I believe, mine was from a 86-90 VW Jetta/Golf. Audi used the same for a couple of years.

Let me see if I can dig the Bosch numbers off mine and that will help open up the possible donor list as well as the OEM parts suppliers.

KS

_________________
Check out Firearm Finishes & Coating for options to ceramic coat your Locost parts. Hundreds of stock or custom colors including Chrome and Clear Coating options now available! High Temp options for hot bits!! Plastics too!!

Never become a pessimist. A pessimist is correct oftener than an optimist, but an optimist has more fun, and neither can stop the march of events.-Robert A. Heinlein


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 12, 2016, 9:57 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 30, 2011, 7:18 am
Posts: 1615
Location: central Arkansas
Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Another solution for typical fuel tanks without baffles, sumps, or pumps.


Well, duh.

Actually, this is a really good example of how someone (me) can get locked into one particular solution set and miss something obvious.

"Back in the day" external pumps were 2x-3x the price of internal pumps, so you had to weld up a fuel-proof tank and put the electric pump inside, with at least four fittings and some kind of removable lid or hatch to be able to replace the pump.

Nowadays pumps are way cheaper than they used to be and the price differential between internal and external is less. So you don't need a complicated tank to accomodate an internal pump any more, just a small reservoir to gravity feed an external pressure pump.

This was probably intuitively obvious to everyone else...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: February 12, 2016, 10:01 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 30, 2011, 7:18 am
Posts: 1615
Location: central Arkansas
botbasher wrote:
K "fire...heehhe" S


"Pressurized flammables want to be free!" - TRX [grin]


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
POWERED_BY