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I was just perusing Trochu's build log, and was glad to see that since he did not have a clutch safety switch in yet, he had not installed the driveshaft to avoid a potential accident. I wish more people would take these seriously. You NEED them. Not just to pass inspection, and not just to avoid bending up your 7. I have a customer that owns an oil company. They were painting the loading docks one summer, about 30 years ago. They were using a pickup with a manual trans, that someone had bypassed the safety on. The father jumped in the truck, started it, thinking it was in neutral. It was not. The truck jumped backwards in reverse, crushing and killing his son, who was behind the truck. Think about that the next time you bypass ANY safety device. It does happen, and not always to "Someone Else".

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Dismantalus, Fabricatus, Assemblus.....
Certified Welder, Certified Welding Inspector, Full Time Car Freak...In New Jersey no less!

OTOH, counting on a safety switch in what could be a lethal situation is just as bad. Anyone who understands manual transmissions always checks that it's in neutral or pushes the clutch in before starting.

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Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains
Both available from https://www.lulu.com/

I don't think it is so much relying on it as it is belts and suspenders. You are absolutely correct about checking for neutral, and having the clutch depressed. However, we are all human, and we get distracted, forget, etc. I drove stick my whole life. For years I would jump in my wifes car (automatic), and immediately grab for the stick to check neutral, and go to depress the clutch. A bit embarrassing at times, but force of habit. My point is only that if you forget for some reason, that that one little safety switch could be the difference between life and death. The folks in my example were well versed in manual transmissions. But for one of their mechanics bypassing that switch, his mistake would not have cost his sons life. Not to be all "Preachy", but I have witnessed, and known too many people in my life that were hurt or killed because of what most think of as unimportant or unnecessary safety devices. No, you should not DEPEND on them, but they should be there in the event you have a lapse. I'll give another good example. Years back my Father had a tank truck repair shop. Someone had left the ignition switch in the on position when they left the truck, for whatever reason. Later, someone was going to do some welding on the tank. Ground on one end of truck, electrode at the other end. When he struck his arc, the starter engaged, and the engine started. Fortunately, the truck WAS in neutral. If there was a clutch safety switch, the truck could not have started, and possibly caused an injury of fatality. Belts and suspenders.. Oh, and thats just another good example of why you keep your ground as close to your electrode as possible!

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Dismantalus, Fabricatus, Assemblus.....
Certified Welder, Certified Welding Inspector, Full Time Car Freak...In New Jersey no less!

My '55, '60, '65, and '68 vehicles didn't have one. My '89 does, and it's an annoyance.

At least it's not as bad as some of the '80-ish GMs, which required the clutch pedal be slammed all the way to the carpet *and* the shifter to be in neutral... I was arranging for a ride home before someone clued me in.

I'm with you, an unnecessary annoyance.

This way you don't get in the habit of just turning the key and expecting it to protect you, until it doesn't.

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mobilito ergo sum
I drive therefore I am

I can explain it to you,
but I can't understand it for you.

There in lies the problem. People get so used to letting their machines do the thinking that they are unsafe to operate older machinery that makes the operator think!

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Mike - Read my story at http://twinlakesseven.blogspot.com/

Backup cameras, lane departure warning, automatic braking, lights in mirrors to tell you when someone is next to you, etc. I put all of these into the same category as clutch switches.

I always joke with friends that the easiest way to make cars safer is to replace the drivers airbag with a spear gun.

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-Andrew
Build Log
Youtube

Funny thing is, if you are used to driving those 50's and 60's cars, then the fall back, motor memory, habit, etc is to put it in neutral AND depress the clutch. The added clutch and/or neutral switch has NO VALUE whatsoever. I do admit, I have had some cars that start better in neutral and no cutch than with the clutch depressed, especially in sub zero weather. But that is another story.

In today's nanny state (read litigious society), I see the need for manufacturers to install such things. They are not necessary in a home built and only complicate things, albeit, only slightly,IMO. If you plan on having multiple drivers, perhaps it should be considered a must-have.

There I contradicted myself

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Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

The first switch to be bypassed by any off-roader who ventures beyond the well worn path!
Sometimes necessary to be able to start your rig while in gear due to terrain.

I find the nanny-state @&%! so annoying I have disposed of all vehicles that contain even a whiff of it.
The most inane comment I too frequently see on-line is some supposed enthusiast lamenting that "These cars are so dangerous.......".
Really?
Send me the title, I will take it off your hands and save your whole family!

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If I must be a one-man PC free zone, so be it!

I disagree. The actual funny thing is that if you're already operating it correctly anyways, then the clutch safety (or neutral safety) switch on a street driven vehicle CANNOT BE AN ANNOYANCE whatsoever. Just because a device should be a totally transparent redundancy that does absolutely nothing when used correctly, does not diminish it's potential value if somebody tries to use it incorrectly.

Maybe I'm just in the presence of greatness though. Apparently I'm the only one who has ever made a mistake on something I've done right a thousand times before, but just got complacent, or momentarily distracted at an inopportune time, or maybe just had a lapse in memory where I genuinely thought I had followed every step correctly but had actually missed one...And am only able to pretend I am incapable of such errors, if I wanted to, because I was extremely fortunate in those instances.

I for one don't see how any of the above anti-safety-device-purely-for-the-sake-of-being-anti-safety-device rhetoric applies to a clutch safety (or neutral safety) switch on a street driven vehicle in the first place. In fact, I don't see how any of the other arguments against it even makes logical sense. Since the operator still has to physically perform the task that they should be performing anyways, that's not 'counting on a safety switch', or 'letting machines do the thinking', or any equivalency to active safety devices, and certainly doesn't make the operator dangerous on older machinery in which they should be doing exactly the same thing that they are already doing. Consider who is actually more dangerous on any given piece of machinery? The person who assumes their old practices are inherently the best practices on any given piece of machinery, new or old?...Or the person that takes the time to make sure they've learned the current best practices to whatever piece of machinery they operate, new or old, before actually trying to operate it?

Because I want to be able to let any other enthusiast drive my car without having to concern myself with whether they're too old-school to follow modern best practices on a piece of machinery they're not intimately familiar with, I'll be putting a clutch safety switch on it that requires the clutch to be pressed all the way against the clutch stop. If my trans had a neutral sensor readily available, I'd probably have a neutral safety switch as well, but beggars can't be choosers.

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

Recently did away with the %$@! clutch "Safety" in Mom's 92 Toyota.
At 82 she can drive it fine but since it required that the pedal be mashed ALL the way to the floor starting it was too hard for her.
Fortunately just a jumper wire so easily replaced but doubt it will ever happen as at over 300K miles major repairs aren't planned when it dies.

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If I must be a one-man PC free zone, so be it!

You chose to quote only the 1st part of my post. Maybe you didn't read my full post. I did go on to say:

re: Your comment: It can be an annoyance in some instances. Maybe you've just never had a safety switch fail before, preventing you or your loved one from starting the car and causing a tow situation. Just sayin'.

We can disagree. That's OK. But I'm not sure we do disagree really.
BTW, I did install the "reverse lights", seat belts and a roll bar, even though none were required for titling and registering 1960 replica. Do I get any points for them as safety? I do consider my car as safe, or safer than a motorcycle, but not much more. I've never seen a bike with seatbelts or a roll bar.

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Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

I was merely using the part of your post that was most pertinent to one of the key points I was trying to make. I wasn't about to quote every post in its entirety that my post was a reply to. Sorry for any confusion.


I don't consider the annoying situation caused by a component failure to fall into the same category as the component itself being an annoyance. I've had a starter fail, resulting in an annoying no-start situation...That doesn't mean I consider starters to be an annoyance, or think we would be better off without them.


As far as I can tell, mostly just in regards to the all caps portions of our respective posts.

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

I've no complaints with Neutral safety switches. As mentioned, they don't interfere with driving in any way. The biggest safety aspect is they prevent people (kids) from starting the vehicle if the keys are in it. As a teen I once cranked my truck over while in gear and clutch engaged. No idea why, probably thinking about boobs and assuming I was driving another one of my vehicles. Due to the torque multiplication of the bull-low gear, and low rear gear it pushed straight through the brakes and lurched forward about 5ft.

The more important thing is not to operate equipment while people are in pinch-points (AKA crush-points). That is the root cause of the death described, and many others. People rarely mean to run their friends/family over, but it happens often. Stay out of pinch points, and do not operate machinery when others are in them.

Cheers.

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Build log: viewtopic.php?t=9291

Not just an annoyance. My car has a graphite TO bearing, which wears out. ANY needless clutch use is to be avoided. I don't sit at a light with the clutch in, and I sure as heck don't start the car with it in.