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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: October 11, 2020, 12:17 am 
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horchoha wrote:
JackMcCornack wrote:
I ain't buyin' it.
lol, that's ok Jack, I ain't selling it
Seems fair.
Bobber wrote:
At one time, offset piston pins were used to minimize side thrust.
I thought they still were. I think all the engines I've ever worked on had a preferred way of installation for that reason (among others) but come to think of it, I've never had the pistons out of a V engine and if they had offset wrist pins AND valve clearance asymmetry, they'd need left and right pistons and...I dunno, I've just always figured that the forces of pressure (from compression and combustion) and inertia (from flinging up and down a hundred or more times a second) were so much greater than gravitational forces on a piston that it didn't really matter if cylinders were upright, tilted, or flat. And to be honest, I haven't thought hard about this since the '70s, when I was experimenting with offsetting cylinders from directly above the crankshaft, in an effort to extend the power stroke relative to the exhaust and compression strokes. What I recall (vaguely) was that gravity was inconsequential as a wear factor on the pistons and cylinders.

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PostPosted: October 11, 2020, 1:22 am 
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Some V8 pistons are off-set, others not.
Roundy-round racers sometimes reverse the off-set for more power at the expense of engine life.
So far as I know piston off-set is used to reduce thrust side wear.
The angle of the engine would be irrelevant.
And Radial engines! :lol:

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PostPosted: October 12, 2020, 11:04 am 
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horchoha wrote:
Yep the 225 sure had a lot of nicknames. Now can anyone tell me why the engineers 'slanted' the engine? I heard a story many many years ago why they did. . . . . <SNIP>


I may have found your answer by accident, Perry. I was looking for information on my Ford V6 and bumped into this video on YouTube. They say, it was actually 3 reasons. You may need to skip through an ad to see it.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: October 12, 2020, 11:55 pm 
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RichardSIA wrote:
So far as I know piston off-set is used to reduce thrust side wear.
Yes, and that's as far as I know too. That said, if a V8 has pistons with valve relief cutouts, then to reduce thrust wear, the offset is positioned so the force of the piston during combustion is more closely aligned with the direction of the rod. The 'up' side of the pistons will have the cutout for the intake valve(s) and the 'down' side of the pistons will have the cutout for the exhaust valve(s), so if there's a piston pin offset, it will be offset one way (relative to the valve cutouts) on half the pistons and the opposite way on the other half. Or so it seems to me. My guess is that V8 engines don't generally use wrist pin offsets, or I'd have run across this before.

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PostPosted: October 13, 2020, 12:07 am 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
They say, it was actually 3 reasons.
And their reasons are: A lower hood profile (I got that one right), a lower center of gravity (didn't think of that), and better access to accessories (not much of an issue on a Se7en). But then their "lower hood profile" drawing shows it with a downdraft carburetor and an oil bath air cleaner sticking up an easy four inches above the cylinder head. But I do vaguely remember somebody putting one of these engines with side draft SUs in a Lola Mk1, so I guess they're pretty short if you want them to be.

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PostPosted: October 13, 2020, 7:10 am 
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This will be a cool build. Like most of us, ill also be about 4 cars behind Perry

The Slant 6 has the distributor on the wrong side of the engine - ie terrible access, esp with points to adjust in the more compact body styles. My father had a 66 plymouth valiant like that - PITA

Jack, it is common for low/medium compression V8 pistons to have 4 valve reliefs to address the offset being opposite between left and right sides


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PostPosted: October 13, 2020, 7:12 pm 
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Sean,
Yes and no, depending on what the engine was in. I had a '68 Dodge Van that you could remove the engine cover with a few screws an expose the entire engine. And work on everything while sheltered from the rain (I lived in Seattle then). Got me, the wife, and our cat up to and all over Alaska, and back again. Hauled firewood out of Weyerhouser Lands for two more rears then was sold cheap to a young couple looking to "take to the road". I know that old girl is still out there.


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PostPosted: October 15, 2020, 9:36 pm 
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Sean in CT wrote:
The Slant 6 has the distributor on the wrong side of the engine
Actually Sean, sitting in the drivers seat the distributor is on the right side of the engine :rofl:
Picked up another diff today. Split the eng/trans today and got them up on engine stands. If you stand back and squint, then unfocused your eyes, you can just make out the outline of a slant 6 super 7, yeah?No?
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"No one ever told me I couldn't do it."
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Perry's Locost Super Che7enette Build
Perry's TBird Based 5.0L Super 7 L.S.O.
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PostPosted: October 16, 2020, 10:49 am 
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Hmmmm, with the long 6, that transmission dipstick is likely in the wrong place.

See what happens when I squint?

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: October 16, 2020, 11:45 am 
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My first thought when seeing the 2nd photo was something about a strange married couple in a circus. Not safe to repeat in today's PC world. A joke/rhyme that my dad taught me years ago. I have no control over where my mind goes. Anyway, back to the subject: I am amazed at how clean you workspace is. Well, the center of that workspace anyway. And at the speed of which you build, I'm surprised to see a chair so prominent in that workspace. :mrgreen:

I can't wait to see that drivetrain in a frame. Are you really going with the auto trans?

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PostPosted: October 16, 2020, 1:31 pm 
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I was raised on the General, so my Mopar knowledge is pretty slim. But I was surprised to learn from your thread that the Slant 6 was still being used in '79. They sure had a decent production run.

Currently have the last of the square Cherokees with the 4.0. My first inline 6. I find them comparatively easy to work on compared to a V-engine even being shoehorned into the Cherokee. It's too bad they're so long.

Uncle Tony is the best. So nice to find car advice that isn't based on cubic dollars.


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PostPosted: October 17, 2020, 5:32 pm 
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I'm think we call it a "Super Slant". Sort of like a Super Fly only cooler!

Thom :lol:


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PostPosted: October 18, 2020, 12:47 am 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
Hmmmm, with the long 6, that transmission dipstick is likely in the wrong place.
I think we'll be able to make 'er fit, may have to break out my sky hook and use it to bring down my frame stretcher from the rafters though.
rx7locost wrote:
My first thought when seeing the 2nd photo was something about a strange married couple in a circus. Not safe to repeat in today's PC world. A joke/rhyme that my dad taught me years ago.
There now you see Chuck, now you've peaked my interest, I know we have to be on our best behaviour here (or at least right on the edge), but you can by all means PM this Limerick you speak of. After 61 years I have yet to be offended by humour no matter how light or dark it gets.
rx7locost wrote:
Are you really going with the auto trans?
Yes, I'm sticking to my build philosophy where as I use everything the donor car has to offer (and I'm getting too old and lazy to shift in city traffic).
chrisser wrote:
But I was surprised to learn from your thread that the Slant 6 was still being used in '79. They sure had a decent production run.
The Slant 6 production run ran from 1959 - 2000, the last few years being put only in trucks.
chrisser wrote:
I was raised on the General, so my Mopar knowledge is pretty slim.
Don't fret chrisser, being an auto mechanic I learned a long time ago that no matter what the emblem says it's still just a bunch of nuts and bolts holding things together as they whirl around up and down, back and forth, make noise, make you grin, make you swear, make you dream about things I can't mention here, and at the end of the day you pat the dam thing as you walk past it to go to the house!
BostonWill wrote:
I'm think we call it a "Super Slant". Sort of like a Super Fly only cooler!
That reminds me of a guy I used to know, had these sun glasses, he called them 'cooler glasses'. Being me I fell for it, asked ok, what are cooler glasses? He says, 'hey I'm cool, but when I put on these sun glasses I'm cooler'. Remember this was back in the late seventies, which I may or may not really remember because I was there.

Back to the build! Tore the engine down to evaluate it, :cry: Not a good feeling when I pulled #5 spark plug. Pulled the head and found the cylinder wall eroded most of the circumference about 3/4" down. Other hint of something wrong was a tablespoon of green antifreeze that came out before the oil when draining the oil pan. I honed the cylinder to .010" over and still have wear present. So far the only thing I can see is the steel head gasket may have failed causing coolant to creep into the cylinder at rest, then wash away the lubrication when firing (or this engine casting was flawed from new). #5 piston looks reuse-able. All other cylinders have minimal wear at the top ring reversal area.
Still have to scrutinize the head. I found an auto machine shop that will mill the hole and install a liner to bring it back to spec. Found the front cam bearing had about 25% failure on it, the babbit de-laminated a bit, but it still served it's purpose. Cons and main bearings all stamped '79 and looked like the day they were installed.
Here's my disassembly trick FWIW. Years ago before I went to the dance with Dad and came home with Mom (you young fellers will have to ask some old guys what this means), AME plane mechanics used tobacco bags for keeping nuts and bolts in order whilst working on a plane. Skip ahead to the space age, I use baggies to sort the nuts and bolts, $4 for a hundred and a sharpie and my brain doesn't need to try and remember where every fastener is or was. I have baggies where there is only 1 bolt in them, but no guessing where and what to use it for. And not only are they space age you can see through them too!
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Other than that I got nothing.......

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Perry

'If man built it, man can fix it'
"No one ever told me I couldn't do it."
"If you can't build it safe, don't build it."

Perry's Locost Super Che7enette Build
Perry's TBird Based 5.0L Super 7 L.S.O.
Perry's S10 Super 7 The 3rd
Perry's 4th Build, The Topolino 500 (Little Mouse) Altered


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PostPosted: October 18, 2020, 8:49 am 
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Perry, as requested, you have a PM. :mrgreen:

Us cheap ba$***ds will even take some mineral spirits or acetone and erase the writing when the engine/car parts are reassembled, giving the bags a 2nd life. Personally, I pay up for the zip-loc bags with the sliding tabs. I like the easy open feature when I'm wearing work gloves. I will caution that any welding in the area will create holes that will meld the front and rear sides together. I guess that is better than starting a fire with the tobacco bags. :ack:

I approve of your re-lining cyl #5 plan and honing the others. and just add a full set of new rings. As for the cam bearings, I don't5 know the current situation for that engine. Years ago when I rebuilt my MGA engine, the speed shop doing the machine work did not have the proper line-reaming tool. Since I was doing the reassembly, they taught me how to carve the bearings to fit with a kitchen knife. Really! 20 years later, when the engine was fired up the first time, the oil pressure was great! Do you remember when mechanics used to knurl a used piston skirt to reduce piston slap? I never did but I read about it some 45 years ago. Old school sometimes works, at least in a pinch. It is not like we are trying to get the next 100k miles from these engines. 20k or 30k will do just fine, I think.

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PostPosted: October 19, 2020, 10:52 am 
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Spent some time in the shop cleaning the block and analyzing #5 cylinder issue. Could not see any visible cause either on the block or the head that would cause coolant to enter #5 cylinder other than the steel head gasket. In the pic of the block you can see #5 cylinder clearly. Honed the other cylinders. Backing up a bit with this story, this must have happened miles and miles ago because when I removed the head the eroded area was shiny like the rest of the cylinder surface area and there is no noticeable damage to the piston.
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Took the time to check the valves, cleaned them, and sharpened them up. Every time I grind valves I remember my dad, who for a time worked as a parts man at my uncles Ford/Case/Versatile/New Holland dealership back in the late 50's. Said they used to charge 2 bits a valve and 2 bits a hole to do a valve grind job. So by grinding the valves myself so far I've saved $3 :rofl:
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rx7locost wrote:
Since I was doing the reassembly, they taught me how to carve the bearings to fit with a kitchen knife. Really! 20 years later, when the engine was fired up the first time, the oil pressure was great! Do you remember when mechanics used to knurl a used piston skirt to reduce piston slap?
Yes Chuck, knurling used pistons was standard repair practice when I was in Auto school. Had the pleasure of actually knurling a few myself. The big selling feature for knurling was "the knurl traps oil so the piston gets better lubrication", whether that's fact or not who knows but it did reduce piston to wall clearance. And I've also had the pleasure of carving newly installed cam brgs with a curved blade scalpel to get the cam to fit, it just takes finesse, time, and patience.
Bet people would gasp at such practices today.

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Perry

'If man built it, man can fix it'
"No one ever told me I couldn't do it."
"If you can't build it safe, don't build it."

Perry's Locost Super Che7enette Build
Perry's TBird Based 5.0L Super 7 L.S.O.
Perry's S10 Super 7 The 3rd
Perry's 4th Build, The Topolino 500 (Little Mouse) Altered


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