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PostPosted: January 29, 2014, 8:56 am 
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No I don't have any drivetrain parts on hand yet. A small block Ford should be pretty small. The OEM stock manifolds for them are tall, but I think there are choices there.It's sort of a side goal to make as small and light a SBF as possible. So I'm trying to figure out what it takes, where it gets me and wether it's worth it.

One of the reasons I started looking at this was the number of parts that are available. Building up these engines turns out to be a huge subject thought. Ford Motorsports alone sells several blocks and heads, then there are several other companies that sell multiple versions of blocks and heads. Even after eliminating a good number of choices on whatever basis, you still have a huge number of choices…

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PostPosted: January 29, 2014, 1:00 pm 
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Marcus, try not to overthink engine selection. If it was me? find a good used 302 out of a later-model mustang GT, and go for it.

the task of building a car up from scratch is so exceedingly complex, simplifying your decision matrix any way you can is a benefit. so, sure, ideally you'd like the lightest and best performing small block ford V8 would be great, but what you need, now, is an engine that is servicable and reliable, and that you can start working out the fitment issues.

YRMV, of course ;-)

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PostPosted: January 29, 2014, 1:07 pm 
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What does the cheapest and/or easiest option net you versus the most expensive and/or most labor intensive? Is it really worth the effort.

Unless there was some massive disadvantage, I'd second this and get whatever will take the least amount of effort to fit:
robbovius wrote:
Marcus, try not to overthink engine selection.


Heck if you get something cheap enough you could probably use it to build the car, run it for a short time, buy/build what you actually want, and sell the cheap combination on Craigslist for a minimal loss at worst.

Have you decided if you're going street legal or track only?

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PostPosted: January 29, 2014, 1:36 pm 
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I read that you're using a smaller diameter flywheel. On most engine/tranny assemblies, the bellhousing and oil pan are almost always hang down to the same level. So making the flywheel smaller doesn't gain anything unless you're planning on a drysump setup. Very expensive but absolutely the best way to treat your engine. There is the small matter of where to put the several gallon oil reservoir, though.

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PostPosted: January 30, 2014, 11:21 am 
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horizenjob wrote:
A small block Ford should be pretty small.


I seriously am an anti-bandwagoner Marcus but the LS* is pretty darn hard to beat these days and you have Tom's precedented stresses to make yours less!


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PostPosted: January 31, 2014, 5:20 pm 
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robbovius wrote:
Marcus, try not to overthink engine selection. If it was me? find a good used 302 out of a later-model mustang GT, and go for it.

the task of building a car up from scratch is so exceedingly complex, simplifying your decision matrix any way you can is a benefit. so, sure, ideally you'd like the lightest and best performing small block ford V8 would be great, but what you need, now, is an engine that is servicable and reliable, and that you can start working out the fitment issues.

YRMV, of course ;-)

This, lol. You can always tweak things later if you decide to replace your first engine with a custom built one. I would focus on getting the engine's placement correct. By starting with the right flywheel / bell housing / transmission combination you are already quite a distance towards getting the engine exactly where you want it. After that, I'd go for a junkyard engine that can use a standardized set of engine mounts and was both cheap and readily available. At that point you are probably "close enough" with the engine to build a car that will be fun. The "perfect" engine is definitely a stage two thing.

I do recognize that stage two will probably involve a lighter engine and needing to re-tune the suspension, but after you have both more time and experience with the car, I'm betting that you will want to change your initial springs & (probably) dampers anyway. And while you're building the stage two engine, you can be gaining experience while driving the car.

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PostPosted: February 21, 2014, 1:43 pm 
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I'm on the road so making progress is a little slow right now. I took this picture just before I left to show I was doing something! You can see in my car that I made the dash hoop continuous down to the floor, which means that the upper rail is in two pieces and welded to the dash hoop. I was a little unhappy with this, because a single piece of tube seems simple and reliable. The dash hoop would be strong enough either way. That joint will have other tubes joined there so it should be strong enough and I think I will just go forward. I think there were a couple of pounds to be saved there so that's why I did it...

Next up is the cockpit side diagonal tubes. I am considering a small change in the frame here with the main roll bar ending at the upper frame rail. This will allow the lower part of the leg to tilt forward near the bottom a bit more and might help with space issues for the rear suspension and also the diff mount. Makes lots of other issues though and I have abandoned this approach in the past after working on it for a month. I'll try to put up pictures of the model for this later today.

Don't worry about my motor issues/thoughts slowing me down too much. I can get a junkyard motor easily enough. Getting it to my basement to serve as a mockup is a bit of a challenge though.

I noticed the other day that Ford Motorsports is no longer selling a version of the T5 with close ratios. Sigh...


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PostPosted: February 21, 2014, 4:02 pm 
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Good to see the progress report, Marcus. And nice work on the coping :cheers:

I don't think you will be sacrificing any chassis strength by saving those couple of pounds. The design should be incredibly strong either way.

Love the blue tape. Team Slotus will be so proud to see that :lol:

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PostPosted: February 21, 2014, 8:06 pm 
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horizenjob wrote:
. . . <SNIP> . . . I noticed the other day that Ford Motorsports is no longer selling a version of the T5 with close ratios. Sigh...

Yes, too bad. My Phase II plan includes an engine/T5 rebuild and close ratio gears. I understand there is an Aussie company that also sells a close ratio T5 gear set of their own manufacture. I'll see if I can find their info when I get home.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

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PostPosted: February 21, 2014, 10:18 pm 
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Hi best plan now for 400hp if that's the goal, upgrading all the necessary changes later would be a pain.


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PostPosted: February 22, 2014, 12:42 am 
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Lonnie-S wrote:
I understand there is an Aussie company that also sells a close ratio T5 gear set of their own manufacture. I'll see if I can find their info when I get home.

Cheers,


Yeah, nah forget that, it's law in Australia to see what other countries charge, triple it, add tax, add a surcharge for that new boat you're thinking of buying, then check the client out and see if you can add other taxes to suit. Oh and then complain that sales are slow and you could only afford 3 weeks in Europe this year.

Recently people are buying stuff like that from the UK or USA and even with freight, Gov taxes and duty on top are saving a bundle compared to local prices.

But to answer your question, Albins and of course Holinger are the racing gearbox/gearset makers.


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PostPosted: February 22, 2014, 12:45 am 
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small ford parts are readily available but beware.

blocks aftermarket aluminum blocks are light but some vendors don't make them and i have seen some, both ford and chevy that were poorly machined with in one instance an oilway drilled too deep causing an internal oil leak.

these aluminum blocks are also fragile, like they bend in a crash or distort if it has been used before and the engine suffered a blow up.

iron blocks, old "seasoned" blocks are now just about useless as they have a two piece rear main seal and cranks are totally different to a late 302,

beware of cracks in the valley which can cause the block to split down the middle.

late blocks made in mexico are the best due to the high nickel content in the iron and a one piece rear main seal.

302 blocks in general should not be bored larger than .030, as porosity will probably occure.

oil return passages in the ends of the block should be opened up and all the flashing in the block should be removed.

cranks, i would suggest a stroker crank but beware of the manufacturer,

late 302 cranks are heavier than early cranks but stroker cranks are about the same weight as stock late crank, do not go overboard on stroke as the oil control ring get into the wrist pin area very quickly.

rod ratio is also a consideration when the oil ring is so close to the wrist pin.

there are two basic pan designs, front and rear pan, on the rear pan the oil pump may require the front of the pan to be modified for clearence and the pump body and block may require clearencing for the rod caps, i recommend usind a rod with bolts not nuts and bolts

use only a quality timing chain and sprockets as some of the cheap ones are all over the place.

again, block inspection and prep are key to a strong small ford and paint the inside of the block with glyptol electric motor paint

head bolts are now only available in "torque to yeald" type so should be used only once, these bolts are designed with a built in washer specifically for fitting 351 style heads on a 302, all aluminum heads have the 351 bolt hole size but hardened washers should always be used on aluminum heads.

the use of this bolt and washer combo will probably interfere with the header flanges on most headers so must be clearenced on the flange.

compression hight is also a factor to be considered, although various thickness gaskets are available, the standard gasket included in a felpro kit compresses to .040.

note with a stroker and a torqey cam, dynamic compression rises very quickly so beware, you won't be able to get any ignition advance without detonation.

one of the main cap bolts must have a stud sticking out of it for the oil pickup.

note that in the block, only 302 parts can be fitted, no 351 parts.

a crank girdle is available for additional support of the main caps but machining is required, a valley support brace kit is available to strengthen this area.

a roller cam and kit is almost a given these days so suitable valve springs should be used, very late factory blocks all have roller cams.

intake and head choice is so wide that i will not recommend anything save that of quench hight should be as close to .040 as possible so check, check and check again!!!! and don't let the static compression rise above 9.5 - 1 for a street engine or our old friend detonation will come a knocking really quickly.

quality must be checked with aftermarket heads that all the bolt holes are good, my edlebrocks were piss poor, and i have seen darts with the pushrod holes in the wrong place.

i would suggest a factory fuel injection system but only one with a MAF sensor or you will not get it to run right with aftermarket parts.

use a factory computer EEC-V with a 104 pin connector as there are many tuners software for this.

flywheels or flexplates, there are two sizes, and you can't get a big one in a small bellhousing 164 tooth and 157 tooth and check the bolt pattern on the crank is compatable.

also the flywheel weight bias is different so go for 50 oz. on a stock style and weighted crank, make sure that the balancer on the front is weighted correctly too, and is four bolt style or you won't get any pulleys for it.

valve gear is a matter of choice but must be checked for correct geometry and pushrod length is somewhat critical.

enough speed secrets for now.

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PostPosted: February 22, 2014, 9:03 am 
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Thanks for the tips, John - saved them for later

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PostPosted: February 22, 2014, 9:20 am 
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Whatever the hp goal, it is better/cheaper/more reliable to use an engine that makes close to that number in it's oem config.

Any v8 will be plenty for such a lightwieght street machine. For an sbf, I'd only consider mid-80s and newer for the roller cam and rear main seal. Older sbfs are fine too but you spend a bit more on improvements to bring it up to mid-80s quality except for the 2-piece rear main, which you are stuck with.

Marcus,

sent you a pm about sketchup yesterday.

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PostPosted: February 24, 2014, 8:52 pm 
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Marcus,

I wnet through my transmission info and couldn't couldn't find that company in Oz (at least yet), but did find an American company that does have what you want. For comparison here is the info I have on the Ford Motorsports, close ration T5:

The close ratio T5's used by Ford Motorsport have:
2.95 first,
1.94 second,
1.34 third,
1.00 fourth,
and .80 fifth.

This company has the above ratios for the first 4 gears, but choices of .59, .63, .75, or .90 for 5th instead of .80 for the overdrive gear. You'll have to do the math to see which of the .75 or .90 choices would be better for you.

They call their CR T5 the "G-Force Street 5-Speed Transmission" and here's their webpage:

CR T5 (see ratio chart in RH margin) ==> https://www.gforcetransmissions.com/tran_gt-5.asp

Cheers,

Lonnie

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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