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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: March 28, 2021, 2:04 am 
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Joined: October 28, 2020, 10:18 pm
Posts: 45
Hello!

Building a locost based on a 1978 Fiat 124 Spider. I was going to restore the Fiat, but it was too far gone. I was always intrigued by the Super 7. Learning a lot while doing this.


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PostPosted: March 28, 2021, 11:33 pm 
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Joined: November 11, 2013, 4:47 am
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Location: No. Nevada
Congratulations on not doing just another Miata build.
The 124 TC Engine has a long and proud heritage.

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PostPosted: March 28, 2021, 11:55 pm 
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Joined: March 19, 2011, 10:22 am
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Location: Holden, Alberta, Canada
mohle wrote:
Alberta Canada Build
Come on now mohle, you have to tell us more about yourself and where exactly in Sunny Alberta you reside.
BTW welcome to the build forum, remember to post lots of pics :cheers:

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'If man built it, man can fix it'
"No one ever told me I couldn't do it."
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Perry's Locost Super Che7enette Build
Perry's TBird Based 5.0L Super 7 L.S.O
Perry's S10 Super 7 The 3rd
Perry's 4th Build The Topolino 500 (Little Mouse) Altered
Perry's 5th Build the Super Slant 6 Super 7
Perry's Final Build the 1929 Mercedes Gazelle


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PostPosted: March 29, 2021, 11:22 am 
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Hi mohle, welcome to the forum. I'll be watching your build with much interest as I've also got a 124 based locost build going, although it's been at glacial pace in the past few years. I always liked the idea that if you add up the digits in 124 you get 7 so the 124 seems like a natural base for a locost.

Are you using the everything you can from the donor, like the original steering box set-up, or planning on mixing and matching some parts?

Bill in Manitoba

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PostPosted: March 29, 2021, 2:40 pm 
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horchoha wrote:
mohle wrote:
Alberta Canada Build
Come on now mohle, you have to tell us more about yourself and where exactly in Sunny Alberta you reside.
BTW welcome to the build forum, remember to post lots of pics :cheers:


Well, I live about 20 minutes west of Edmonton. Born and raised in Germany, I've always been a European car guy. Got two Saabs. A 1990 900 Turbo Coupe that I restored Image, and a 1992 900 Turbo Convertible (to be restored) I had bought a 78' Spider, but it is too far gone to be restored. At least in a "timely and economical" manner. So I opted to use the drive train on a Locost for my daughter. She wants to drive it to her graduation. Image

I figured the Spider pretty much has most of everything I need. 5- speed, 4 wheel disc brakes, and a nice sounding engine.


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PostPosted: March 29, 2021, 5:18 pm 
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Sorry, Still learning how to attach images in this forum

Image

Image


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PostPosted: March 29, 2021, 5:23 pm 
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Frame is currently tacked, while I figure out where everything will fit.

Image

Image


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PostPosted: March 29, 2021, 6:57 pm 
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Try to get the top of the engine to 10 inches or less above the frame rail by cutting out the lower rail inboard of the oil filter, then splice to back together with an inboard overlap between the pan and filter or you can just fit a remote filter base with the correct threads to adapt any remote filter with 1/2 npt fittings. The originals had a problem with the very low oil pan below the rails.

The air filter is going to stick out pretty far but you can fit a foam type and add a hood bump if it needs to be covered. What size frame did you build? Looks like a 442 to me. You could also shorten the front about a foot with this engine.

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: March 29, 2021, 9:14 pm 
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Thanks for the tips. I'm sure I will be using the site more to research some of the components.

It's a little deceiving in the pictures. The oil pan is flush with the underside of the car. I don't care to have it hang below the frame. Definitely not on our Alberta roads with my kids driving it. There also isn't much to gain by cutting down the oil pan. Not much room for that with this engine. I had already looked at relocating the oil filter. It's current location could give issues with the steering linkage.

Last night I started to fab the scuttle. It's 11.5 inches above the top frame rails. The distributor is the highest point of the engine. The Lampredi engine actually had the option to mount the distributor above the oil filter housing (driven by oil pump vs cam). That would probably be the best time to switch to electronic ignition as well. At first it will retain the current carb. I can always go with a cut-out for a square filter in the hood, or with a bulge like the donor car. Really though, I'm working on getting twin Weber 40 IDF's. That will eliminate any height concerns.

The only things of concern to me at this point is the steering and suspension. I will be using the Fiat rear axle. It lines up perfectly with the back upright. The track arms are too long though. Would put the axle almost past the end of the car. Need to find out what size of brackets, bushings and tubing for the bushings are available out there. I may even shorten the original track arms and weld new bushings to it.

The front suspension and steering is my biggest hang up. The Spider is steered from the back of the knuckle, not the front. Again, shouldn't be too much of a problem as I have plenty of room in front of the engine. Also need to find a manual rack. Not the easiest thing in Alberta.

The rest is pretty much straight forward. I actually look forward to trying out some of my tools. Had originally bought an English Wheel, benders and bead rollers for fixing up the donor car. Now I get to use them on this. Although I hate my flux core welder.


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PostPosted: March 30, 2021, 6:35 am 
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It sounds like this will be a walk in the park for you.

To get the steering around the filter, You can add a support pillow (plastic block clamped around the steering shaft to the frame) and an extra joint or tow if the angle is too great for one.

Universal bushing sets from energy/prothane are reasonable or turn nylon rod in a lathe to make “top hats” i.e. 1/4 inch flanged bushes and use pipe (smooth the inner weld bead) or dom tube for the outer race with pipe or ¼ wall dom for the inner all driven by the size fastener required through the center, typically 3/8 to ½ inch grade 5 depending on the application.

I prefer 1/8 plate/strip for nearly anything if it is arranged properly. Flanges should have some give for clamping loads but one side can be gusseted for rigidty, precise locating and strength.

It’s unusual to be able to reuse axle control arms in these builds because it is so cramped and low making bump travel of a forward link arm under the floor an issue. A three or four link is typical. There have been off-road versions with high ground clearance that solve this problem.

Imho, rear steer is ideal for these cars. Most fwd cars are rear steer. Some have an intermediate plate between inner tie rods and a center tapped rack. This plate can be modded or replaced to alter the distance between the inner tie rods to eliminate bumpsteer in the suspension. The distance needs to fall somewhere between the lower control arm (LCA) inner pivots (LCAP) and the upper control arm (UCA) inner pivots (UCAP), usually within a couple inches of the LCAP distance.

Vsusp is a good tool for sorting out the suspension geometry. Level LCA of about 19 inches, UCA of 7-9 deg slope and around 13 inches, and a virtual swing arm of about 60-70 inches seems to work well for camber gain and a stable X and Y roll center through 4 degree of roll. Try to minimize scrub to ½ inch or less with the wheels and tires.

Feel free to ask for opinions and post lots of pics. :cheers:

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: March 30, 2021, 9:42 am 
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Joined: September 30, 2020, 11:44 am
Posts: 112
Location: Eastern Oregon
If it were me, I'd be looking into a relocation kit for that oil filter. Even if not for the actual engine clearance, once the sides are on and all of your other pieces are crammed in there think about how you're going to change it.

Then again, maybe you've already thought this through, in which case ignore my comment.

All and all what you've done so far looks good, keep up the solid work.

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PostPosted: March 30, 2021, 11:28 am 
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Thanks guys. All comments are appreciated. There is a lot of things that one can miss and not think of.

In regard to the track arms, they line up exactly with K3 and K4. Simplicity wise, the perfect anchor point would be at the base of those. For added strength, I would add another K3 and K4 on the outside of each. Essentially making an extra wide K3 and K4, flush with the outside of the car. See attached image (Sorry, the embed doesn't want to work on my Onedrive). This would also give me a really solid seatbelt anchor point. Yes it will raise the weight, but I'm not concerned with track times.

Before I decide on relocating the filter, I 'm going to install the proper one. The PH7 that came on the engine is surely not the original. Looks like it's about twice the size of the original. It may will have to move. Not really excited about that, as the drivers side will be pretty crowded. The passenger side means it will be a pretty long run. I should really have built a 442. Oh well!

Has anyone ever tried mounting a Spider windshield and frame?


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PostPosted: March 30, 2021, 12:49 pm 
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That would make for extremely short links. It's your build of course but know that short links add a lot more roll steer, less suspension travel, more fore-aft travel of the wheels in the fender wells, more driveshaft travel at the slip yoke (may not be long enough spline to cope without falling out unless travel is limited), and more wheel hop from braking.

How about a pic of the axle and all the links? Since this is a Champion “book” chassis, it is probably narrow enough that 4 links can be added connecting M1 and M2.outside the frame rails. They’d need room to move from side to side also with roll also. May require wheel spacers for adequate clearance or you could substitute a wider axle, possibly from a Toyota pickup?

Locating the rear axle is one of the more difficult aspects when there is no room under the driver and the tire is near his elbow.

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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PostPosted: March 30, 2021, 9:45 pm 
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Joined: October 28, 2020, 10:18 pm
Posts: 45
See?! This is why I joined this forum. Great points. I'm still wrapping my head around suspension geometry.

The lower trailing arm is exactly 2' long and 38 3/4" apart. The upper ones are exactly 1' long and 21 1/2" apart. The panhard rod is 40" long. Unlike the parts diagram, the panhard rod is not adjustable. At 38 3/4", they are virtually the same width as K3 and K4. Contrary to my previous statement, I would have to double up on the inside of K3 and K4.


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PostPosted: March 31, 2021, 8:07 am 
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If I had my heart set on this axle, I’d cut off everything, swap caliper brkts (from side to side) to put the calipers behind the axle, providing the clearance to run basically the original fiat links (as LCAs) but further apart, up against the backing plates and aligning with M1/M2, then weld a very strong mounting point (above the diff) to fit a tie rod end attached to an A frame (UCA) the width of the tunnel opening. It is basically a 90s geo tracker or ford aerostar mounting arrangement or an upside down early seven arrangement. No panhard needed plus you lose the mounting location anyway (due to the swapped caliper brkts). Plan on spacers to get the tires to clear the links in roll. If the spacers are very thick, it would need to be an "adapter" to include studs but the pattern would be unchanged.

The length of the A arm and lower links as well as the best mounting heights and fore-aft position for best roll steer, anti-squat, and pinion angle change through full travel would need to be determined.

Otherwise, look for an axle about a foot wider WMS to WMS than the distance between M1 and M2 (around 54 inches or more).

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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