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PostPosted: December 7, 2014, 8:58 am 
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john hennessy wrote:
Locofinn,

i have just read your whole post, very interesting, i have a few questions about the front and in particular the scrub radius, you intend to change this using ledgend parts, is this purely to reduce the scrub to allow easier/quicker steering inputs? Yes and narrow the car and lighten the hub/brake package significantly. The front spindle/brake combo is very heavy!

i noticed in your first drive video that you had a steering wheel with a red top, this was good to see the amount of turn required to turn the car which seemed to be too much, is what i'm seeing true? too many turns lock to lock. It is a Coleman 2.5 ratio which is similar to a stock Corvette. I would like to swap out a quicker rack.

and why did you change the wheel? I'm still running the same wheel.

the forward facing lower control arm strut, is this any advantage over a rear facing strut or two equally spaced struts? Not that I'm aware of.

i have to ask, how low is your roll center at the front and is the rear significantly higher? The front is a little higher

what are you currently running for spring rates and what are your corner weights? Front rates are 220lb and rear are 90lbs. These are spring rates not wheel rates! Corners at last scale were LF 364, RF 349, LR413, RR 398. Cross weight 49.98%, Front 46.78% Rear 53.22% with total weight with driver 1,523 with full fuel load. I need to loose a 100 lbs or more and I will be cutting some weight this rebuild.

the last question is how wide a 13" tire do you consider wide enough? 10" fronts and 12" rears should do it.

i have only one other comment in that you need something to locate the rear of the hood because if you smack the car and it comes off it could hit you edge on in the throat. Good idea. I will add pins. Thanks!

if some of this is "TOP SECRET" i would appreciate a pm,

very good effort especially using stock off the shelf suspension components.

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South Bend Region SCCA D-Modifed Class Autocross & Track-Day/TT. Chevrolet 1.4 L Turbo Ecotec Power


Link to my build log:
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3356


Last edited by locofinn on December 7, 2014, 9:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: December 7, 2014, 9:08 am 
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carguy123 wrote:
What kind of hp are people getting on that motor?

I see it's only 138 hp stock but I'm betting there's a kinda standard way to mod that gives something better than that. A simple tune an CAI can get you 40WHP (up to 178 WHP) and 55 WTQ (up to 180 ft/lbs). These motors are quite detuned from GM. There is more to be had with E85, exhaust downpipe, different turbo, etc.. Others think we can get well north of 250 WHP with no internal mods.

Did you compare it in size and weight to the 2.0 LNF turbo?
The rules limit to 1.4L forced induction or 2.0L normally aspirated.

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South Bend Region SCCA D-Modifed Class Autocross & Track-Day/TT. Chevrolet 1.4 L Turbo Ecotec Power


Link to my build log:
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PostPosted: December 7, 2014, 9:12 am 
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Driven5 wrote:
locofinn wrote:
Notice I also changed the rear fenders/spoiler due to potential protest threat.:(
I'm curious what specifically is your protest threat that you are no longer running a full width spoiler? I can kind of see the old fender shape as detracting from the identity of the car. But the wording of the spoiler rule (at least in the 2014 rule book) very specifically states that the spoiler on all cars is allowed to continue horizontally from the 10" point on the centerline, out to the width of the wheel openings, and extend down to wherever it happens to intersect with the rear fender shape.


carguy123 wrote:
Did you compare it in size and weight to the 2.0 LNF turbo?
Class rules limit forced induction engines to 1428cc or less.


You are correct on both points. I will be modifying the spoiler some and adding a rear diffuser also. I want the option to remove or lower the rear spoiler or do a wing for track days and hillclimbs someday.

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PostPosted: December 7, 2014, 12:06 pm 
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thanks for the information,

it rases some other questions you may wish to answer,

first, is the front and rear roll center below ground level?

second, is the reason for narrowing the car that it is just too wide for the course?

the change to a ledgends upright, would this enable you to shorten the steering arm length to speed up the inputs whilst retaining the rack?

looking at the rack location, it is behind the steering arms, so where is the ackaman point?

the ground clearence, you have a low ground clearence but the motor is placed quite high in the car, high enough to have to modify the tube at the front of the tunnel to clear the trans/bell housing, do you think these two things are in conflict, could you raise the chassis and lower the engine in the chassis? i am aware that this may require changes to the control arm inner points but if you were to do it over would the low ground clearence still be the same?

and lastly, the springs seem quite soft, what is the compressed spring rate at ride hight, is there preload on them? the open length compared to the ride hight length.

sorry to pick your brains here but it is clear that because you need to change various things, that you can see improvements that were not there in the original build and needed a redo, these refinements are what make a car quicker and for you to see the need is a good reflection on you as a driver/builder.

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PostPosted: December 8, 2014, 6:23 pm 
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john hennessy wrote:
thanks for the information,

it rases some other questions you may wish to answer,

first, is the front and rear roll center below ground level? Yes

second, is the reason for narrowing the car that it is just too wide for the course? I'm at 72" outside to outside. Narrower is better without sacrificing much.

the change to a ledgends upright, would this enable you to shorten the steering arm length to speed up the inputs whilst retaining the rack? Yes. I want to quicken up the turning but also want to keep steering effort low. I want to avoid adding power steering to get the beefy tires we run to turn easier. Quicker ratios can impact turning effort. These cars are so light it might not be such a problem.

looking at the rack location, it is behind the steering arms, so where is the ackaman point? I do not have the exact point calculated. I do have ackerman as you observed with adjustments for the rack to move forward or back. I think this is a bigger issue on the slower tighter turns as opposed to the high speed wider turns. It turns well on high grip surfaces in tight low speed turns so I have not messed with it yet. I think I have bigger issues with scrub.

the ground clearance, you have a low ground clearance but the motor is placed quite high in the car, high enough to have to modify the tube at the front of the tunnel to clear the trans/bell housing, do you think these two things are in conflict, could you raise the chassis and lower the engine in the chassis? i am aware that this may require changes to the control arm inner points but if you were to do it over would the low ground clearance still be the same?I will be raising the chassis about 1" and modifying the lower cross brace to clear. The old rotary engine had a very high crank center as compared to a piston engine car. I also had the motor set further back in the car pushing the bellhousing in the chassis cross brace area. I took advantage of this in the engine/chassis layout to keep the chassis and bodywork low and smooth on the bottom. This might not be a big issue on the lower speed events I run but I would like to track the car and do hillclimbs someday were undercar aero is more of an issue. The new engine will also be set back in to the cross brace area and there will be significant modifications to the chassis to come. I don't think raising the chassis 1" will hurt much if I keep the bottom fairly smooth.

and lastly, the springs seem quite soft, what is the compressed spring rate at ride height, is there preload on them? the open length compared to the ride height length.Yes there is preload. I did a suspension frequency calculation on one of the on-line calculators when I changed the springs and went softer in the front. I was originally at #350 in front and it pushed really bad. My suspension frequencies were way off. To get the frequencies where they should be front and back I had to go this soft. The car does not bottom and handles really a LOT better. I subscribe to the theory: Run the softest springs and implement swaybars and shocks for tuning. I like the directions I'm going with this. Others may have a different opinion and approach

sorry to pick your brains here but it is clear that because you need to change various things, that you can see improvements that were not there in the original build and needed a redo, these refinements are what make a car quicker and for you to see the need is a good reflection on you as a driver/builder.

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Building a whole car from scratch is a 1,000 little tasks, done 1 task at a time, while thinking 10 tasks ahead, then redoing it anyway.
South Bend Region SCCA D-Modifed Class Autocross & Track-Day/TT. Chevrolet 1.4 L Turbo Ecotec Power


Link to my build log:
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3356


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PostPosted: December 8, 2014, 7:58 pm 
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Personally I like a suspension that is allowed to do its job too, but I don't think running the springs soft enough to require significant preload accomplishes that either...Then again, I've never built a competitive D-Mod car before either. So take this all with a grain of salt. Assuming the front frequency is in the same ballpark as the rear, and that your rear is 1:1: motion ratio, you're in the neighborhood of a 1.5Hz ride frequency. Even considering the soft-spring/big-bar philosophy, that's on the soft end for track biased street car, let alone a dedicated race car. My intuition is that you are experiencing some combination of bottoming the suspension without realizing it, running so much preload that it cancels out a significant amount of the soft-spring benefits, or have only run on ridiculously smooth surfaces. I would think your suspension might actually move more freely overall had you increased th rear rate instead of decreasing the front with preload.

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PostPosted: December 8, 2014, 11:08 pm 
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the advantage of running a longer lighter spring with a percentage of preload is that the lbs. per inch is still that of the light spring, this allows the car to be supported at ride hight but has more compliance over bumps and body roll is more pronounced.

if you need as in a autocross car quick reacting suspension to induce camber gain then the soft spring rate helps, you can tune it out with shocks and sway bars.

in my locost i have 110 lb. springs up front and no sway bar, my shocks are set to minimum, there is some roll but well within aceptable levels.

if you have the room for longer springs or can create it, then that would be my preference.

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PostPosted: December 9, 2014, 10:42 am 
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Compliance in bump is great, but droop is typically valuable too. Even with the same wheel rate/natural frequency, having longer travel shocks/springs of the same rate, rather than using significant preload, provides the same bump characteristics plus additional droop compliance. I don't believe significant preload itself typically helps much until unless it is simply being used to cover up an even larger problem with the car, or is preventing further droop due to suspension articulation limitations. Especially on surfaces as rough as a many autox sites.

Sorry to harp on this, but I'm curious how much droop travel the car actually has? Are the arms near parallel with the chassis bottom at full droop? If so, I would be concerned from the previous pictures that the inside front suspension might be fully extending during cornering. It could be that there is actually more than is apparent to me from the pictures, but it is one thing that jumps out in my mind.

Unless the camber gain is >1 degree per degree of roll, which is uncommon, then allowing more travel in the name of camber gain provides no cornering grip benefit without running correspondingly more static camber too, as total tire camber relative to the ground will be reduced with body roll. Of course, controlling that is what the sway bars can do. The additional camber will however also reduce grip under braking.

Using 110lb springs at a 1:1 ratio provides the same wheel rate as 200lb springs at a .74 ratio. So discussing ride/roll characteristics based on spring rates doesn't really tell us much of anything in of itself. I would be interested to know what the actual motion ratios are on the car, as that would help provide a better point of comparison.

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PostPosted: December 9, 2014, 1:04 pm 
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typical suspension setups for a track or road is not what i believe is needed for autocross.

adding pre load to the springs allows the suspension to recover quicker than no preload as the load of the spring is higher than the spring rate for a given length.

if you have a shock that has 10" of travel, then you set the ride hight of the chassis to give an installed length of 5".

to support the corner of the car requires a spring to hold up lets say 200lbs. in that 5" window so you would need a spring that when installed and compressed to 5" would hold the car at ride hight, that would be at a 1:1 ratio, giving a spring of 40lbs. per inch at 10" long.

this would give a spring that allows 5" of compression in bump and 5" of droop and at full droop, the spring would be fully relaxed.

the speed at which the spring compresses and the speed at which the spring extends are not the same as the more you compress a spring the harder it is to compress it because the spring is fighting back at an ever stiffer rate slowing the speed it compresses at per inch with a given bump force until a point where the spring stops compressing, hopfully about an inch before the shock runs out of travel.

to keep the wheel in touch with the road in droop, we need a fast reaction to the loss of weight when the car is light after a bump, this is the point of having preload, to prevent the spring slowing down as it extends as it will stop extending at full droop if at that point it is relaxed and at every point on its journey to become relaxed it is loosing push.

if we increase the length of the spring, reducing its rate but not the shock and maintain the same shock length at ride hight, pre loading the spring is required.

so if we install a spring that is 12" long and has a rate of 30lbs. per inch and pre load the spring by 2", the ride hight would be about the same at 5" of shock travel, however the rate per inch is less and therefore the speed that the spring will compress is faster and also the speed at which the spring will extend in droop is faster as it never approaches the relaxed state of zero movement because the shock will stop it.

however the load on the spring is the same for both but the total compressed load is higher for the 10" 40lb. spring than for the 12" 30lb. spring.

this is not a problem if the bump forces never exceed the travel of the shock with the lighter longer spring causing the shock to bottom out, to correct this, you would adjust the ratio of bump to droop at ride hight to allow for more bump but if the shock/spring combination is long enough, then this situation should never be reached.

again, in an autocross car faster reacting suspension is needed due to the tight corners and slower speeds, this is how the car effects a larger amount of body roll to generate camber change quicker in low speed tight corners, if the suspension were too stiff moving from ride hight to fully compressed or on the inner wheel, to full droop, almost no camber change would take place before the car was force to change direction by the driver.

it is clear that a roll center below the ground plane is intended to induce chassis roll in a corner because the lever between the c of g and the roll axis is longer than a roll center above ground, this to actuate camber differential between the inner and outer wheels in a corner.

so because the driver is required to make fast changes in the direction of the car, the suspension must respond at a similar rate or the car will loose grip and give the simptom of "push" because the steering input is too rapid for the camber to change and grip is lost.

why do you think that almost all car springs are pre loaded?

why do you think that in the wet, it is beneficial to disconnect the sway bars?

why do you think that on a road course, inputs to the steering are ment to be slower and smoother compared to an autocross course?

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PostPosted: December 9, 2014, 4:08 pm 
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I understand what you're saying, but don't fully agree with all of your conditions or conclusions. However, without back-to-back controlled testing to sort it out, there is little point in further cluttering up this build thread.

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Last edited by Driven5 on December 9, 2014, 9:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: December 9, 2014, 8:12 pm 
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correct

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PostPosted: December 16, 2014, 10:51 pm 
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Starting to assemble the package so I can get the engine mounts welded. Front wheel drive now rear wheel drive 1.4 turbo Ecotec! Did some frame chopping this weekend. I posted some dimensions in the Drivetrain forum.


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PostPosted: December 19, 2014, 6:02 pm 
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First fitting. I had to cut several bulkhead tubes and will require some rework there but the 1.4T fits OK. I will require a small bump in the bonnet but is is not too bad. I don't know how some people fit V8's in a "book" frame!


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PostPosted: December 19, 2014, 10:05 pm 
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Looks like you could lower the engine a few inches, in the new caterham 620 it hangs out by 2 to 3 inches, good way to lower the cog.


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PostPosted: December 20, 2014, 7:11 am 
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You're gonna have to do something about that big ol' Mazz-dah sticker on the nose, too... :mrgreen:

Looking good, Bro! Maybe a hole in the hood, let that lump peek out a bit?

:cheers:

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