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PostPosted: June 6, 2017, 7:45 am 
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OK, so I'll abandon my reveries of Juanita and the summer of 1978 for a moment...

Could you make a "hood" that extends out from the dash and surrounds the Ford instrument cluster? It would be form fitting, leaving just enough space between the hood itself and the cluster to reach in with a screwdriver and mount the cluster to the front of the dash board? I was thinking of aluminum flat bar about 1/8 thick and slightly wider than the cluster.

That would allow you to put the cluster on top of the dash, out of the way of the hoop and give you a "sun visor" over the instruments.

Seems like Panoz and maybe Saturn used a design like that for their cars at some point.

Any-hoo, my .01 (half-price for you, Lonnie!)

:cheers:
JDK

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PostPosted: June 7, 2017, 9:01 am 
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Location: central Arkansas
Lonnie-S wrote:
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean, but I'm interested.


Um. I don't know how to make zippy picture annotations like yours...

Assume the scuttle only has to accomodate the instrument cluster. You're not putting a big heater box, glovebox, etc. in there, or if you are, you can be flexible about the shape and placement.

Given that, you can use the volume of the scuttle to build a triangulated structure connecting the two side rails and the spine, *much* stiffer than just a hoop or two.


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PostPosted: June 7, 2017, 10:59 am 
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@gonzoracer
Hey, JD, I appreciate that 50% discount.

You expressed more completely, what I tried to say. I'm thinking there's some kind of solution that will allow me to surface mount the instrument cluster. If I can manage to keep my big ham fingers off the little needles, I could even put off doing that for a little while as I try to get this build finished to Phase I, which is running and registered.

That company I mentioned does update kits for many instrument panels. They are an OEM provider for Detroit it turns out. They have some really cool upgrades for the Mustang panels, so keeping it, and upgrading later could be an excellent option.

I like all the weird race cars Panoz does, so I'll try to find some stuff on them and see what they did. Thanks for that suggestion.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: June 7, 2017, 11:03 am 
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TRX wrote:
. . . Um. I don't know how to make zippy picture annotations like yours...

Assume the scuttle only has to accomodate the instrument cluster. You're not putting a big heater box, glovebox, etc. in there, or if you are, you can be flexible about the shape and placement.

Given that, you can use the volume of the scuttle to build a triangulated structure connecting the two side rails and the spine, *much* stiffer than just a hoop or two.


Well, thank you for the compliment, he says, blushing. :oops:

We're really on the same page. I do have more packaging to do (heater, ducts, ECU, etc.), but I am also trying to keep paths open for triangulating the dash hoop as well.

Thanks for the input.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: June 7, 2017, 4:23 pm 
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i know i'm a bit late to this but the answer to the cluster is to mount it behind the dash panel, if you look at my finished car you will see the same dash but off to the drivers side and my dash panel is removable with dutz fasteners.

the trans tunnel may need a removable side to access the trans fill, the speedo sensor and the reverse light switch also the clutch hydraulic line and bleeder.

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PostPosted: June 7, 2017, 8:07 pm 
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Hey,

I am a long time reader, first time poster. Anyway, on the older FFR "Cobras", they would separate the Mustang instrument cluster into sections and mount them as individual gages behind round holes in the dash.

I am not sure that the newer clusters can be separated like the Fox body (1987-1993) gages, but you can mount the entire panel behind the dash with circular cutouts to make it more "gage" like if that is desirable.

The Panoz cars just had the cluster in the center of the dash.

Regards,
McCall


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PostPosted: June 8, 2017, 11:12 am 
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john hennessy wrote:
i know i'm a bit late to this but the answer to the cluster is to mount it behind the dash panel, if you look at my finished car you will see the same dash but off to the drivers side and my dash panel is removable with dutz fasteners.

the trans tunnel may need a removable side to access the trans fill, the speedo sensor and the reverse light switch also the clutch hydraulic line and bleeder.


Hi John,

It's nice to hear from you. I hope all is well with you.

Thanks you for the info on the dash. I'll check out your build log. Thanks for the reminder on the access panels too. Although the access to the bottom of the transmission will be good (no undertray there), I need to make sure there's access to the other items you mentioned. I haven't quite decided how to do it, but I'm thinking about it.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: June 8, 2017, 11:18 am 
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Tester wrote:
Hey,

I am a long time reader, first time poster. Anyway, on the older FFR "Cobras", they would separate the Mustang instrument cluster into sections and mount them as individual gages behind round holes in the dash.

I am not sure that the newer clusters can be separated like the Fox body (1987-1993) gages, but you can mount the entire panel behind the dash with circular cutouts to make it more "gage" like if that is desirable.

The Panoz cars just had the cluster in the center of the dash.

Regards,
McCall


Thanks for that info, McCall. Yes, my gauges do separate. However, my plan is to keep them together for packaging reasons. There are a number of nice options to upgrade the Mustang panel and I'll likely choose one in the future, after the basic build is done. I haven't quite decided what "look" I want the dash and car to have yet. I do want to get it up and running and registered as soon as possible for now. So, simplest (stock) is best at this point.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: June 8, 2017, 7:56 pm 
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I do have a plan now for the scuttle, firewall panel, dash hoop and dashboard. I'm going to have a dashboard (simple aluminum panel) that swings out on hinges from the bottom, It will be mounted as part of the dash hoop, but attached to the fiberglass scuttle shell at top by screws. The dash hoop will carry the adjuster for the tilt steering column.

The fundamental scuttle structure will be independent of the dash hoop, and the fiberglass scuttle shell. However, the fiberglass shell will attach to it using some mounting tabs and the windshield frame bolts. That structure will also carry the wiring, windshield wipers and similar components.

The firewall panel (thicker aluminum sheet) will attach to the scuttle structure at bottom and the fiberglass scuttle shell at sides and top.

The general idea is to have an easy swing-out for the gauges and most wiring, but also be able to remove the fiberglass shell if necessary, but leave the scuttle structure in place. Maintenance and repair should be pretty easy.

That's all pretty ambiguous with out sketches or photos, but those are only in my head right now. It's definitely enough to get started with building and that's what I did today. The first two pieces of the scuttle structure are finished. It was quite a giggle to get all those things to integrate. I used cardboard to make mock-up components. The fiberglass shell from Jack at kinetic has been here a while, however. I decide to elevate the scuttle shell 1". Here's the "so far" work.
Attachment:
DSC03807.JPG

The two pieces of sheet metal you see are physical stand-ins for the firewall panel. I'm using those as stops, plus using them to decide where the scuttle structure needs to end like this:
Attachment:
DSC03806.JPG

Due to the slope of the scuttle shell at rear, things are more complicated there. There's the mount for the dash panel hinge, plus the sloping dahboard panel itself comes down at an angle, and has to go over the hings mount to just above the chassis rail as in the following photo. The hinge pivot will go in that odd little 1" gap between the end of the piece just made and the point where the sloping dashboard panel would strike the upper chassis rail:
Attachment:
DSC03805.JPG

These may look like cheesy little parts, but they took a lot of effort to make. They're 1" square RHS with their ends closed. But there are subtle angles in the upper chassis rails that have to be accounted for. Also, I had to cut them short, make 1" square end caps and the weld those into place and grind them smooth, but have them end up the right length. That's way you see the green lines about 1/16" from the black lines where the finished pieces end.

That very nice guy from "Welding Tips and Tricks" makes all this stuff look easy (although, he always shows you how to do it), but I haven't found it so in real life, at least for an amateur like me. It's really easy to blow through this thin tube. Plus there is all the cutting and grinding to get things just right and looking good. This stuff takes me quite a while to do:
Attachment:
DSC03801.JPG

Attachment:
DSC03802.JPG

I still have another decision to make, although I'm pretty well disposed to one solution. It's about the hood and where it should run. I've elevated the scuttle 1" and need to do the same with the nose cone. So, what should I do in between the two? Should I run the hood right on top of the upper chassis rail? Or should I do something a little more creative, and also practical?

If I run the hood to the upper chassis rail, then I've got to take out more metal (and re-weld it to solid), which is show by the marked up area on the side pieces just made like so:
Attachment:
DSC03808.JPG

In the past, I've envisioned putting in movable vents between the hood and the chassis rail. I think that's what I'm going to do. I'm giving myself overnight to think about it. I was thinking about vents somewhat like this, only perhaps 2" high, and movable. You could close them in winter and open them in summer.
Attachment:
Vent Example.jpg

This is far from a finished concept, but this little quick sketch indicates what I'm thinking about:
Attachment:
Hood Vents.jpg


I'll decide by tomorrow morning what I'm going to do.

Cheers,


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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: June 13, 2017, 2:49 pm 
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Lonnie,
Will you be working with the Mustangs PATS system or do you have a work around?
Ron

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PostPosted: June 14, 2017, 10:31 am 
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STranger 7 wrote:
Lonnie,
Will you be working with the Mustangs PATS system or do you have a work around?
Ron


I had to Google that one, Ron. PATS is the vehicle anti-theft system as it turns out.

My donor was the base model, but had keyless remote. That gave some level of anti-theft protection, but I'm not sure exactly what level at this point in time. I have the keyless remote module itself, and the wiring harness for it, but haven't really given it any thought. I probably will only use it if it turns out to be required by the donor ECU.

Is that your thinking that it's required unless you bypass it in some way?

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: June 14, 2017, 1:48 pm 
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Lonnie,
Your '94 V6 PCM didn't come with the PATS. My '95 V8 GT PCM didn't have one either. Apparently it showed up on some of the late '95 Cobras. The PATS hardware can be identified by the plastic ring (transceiver) that surrounds the key barrel on the steering column.
It looks like you can omit the anti-theft module by just connecting the white/pink wire to the red/light blue wire. That's how the editions w/o keyless entry or anti-theft systems were wired.


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PostPosted: June 14, 2017, 4:21 pm 
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Lonnie,
PATS cars, like the 1999 mustang the engine I have came out of, required the key, PCM, gauge cluster, and ECM to match, for the car to start. I thought that was part of the reason for going to such lengths to use the gauge cluster you have.
I was hoping you were on to an after market engine controller that would let me get the 190+ HP the 1999 3.8L is capable of without using the 1999 ECU ( which needs the rest of the PATS parts.)
Worth a try.... Thanks for replying.
Ron

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PostPosted: June 14, 2017, 6:13 pm 
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Check with a remote starter installation place, they will have a work around for the PATS system.
Kristian

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PostPosted: June 14, 2017, 10:28 pm 
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seven13bt wrote:
Lonnie,
Your '94 V6 PCM didn't come with the PATS. My '95 V8 GT PCM didn't have one either. Apparently it showed up on some of the late '95 Cobras. The PATS hardware can be identified by the plastic ring (transceiver) that surrounds the key barrel on the steering column.
It looks like you can omit the anti-theft module by just connecting the white/pink wire to the red/light blue wire. That's how the editions w/o keyless entry or anti-theft systems were wired.


Thanks once again for the every specific info. I might be keeping you up late at night when I get to adapting the Mustang wiring harness. :mrgreen:

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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