Motive's Open Source Middy
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Author:  motive [ January 28, 2009, 4:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

Family in town so I got grounded from the computer so I'll try the blackberry. To access the bottom nut you do take out the hub but there is no adjustment there so no problems. On the bottom of the top weld in piece with the slot there is a recess milled the width of the nut to hold it from turning. To adjust you loosen the b/j bolt a 1/4 turn and loosen the nuts on going through the back of the steering arm. Those bolts are threaded through the main body to keep them in place. Also not shown is the slots in the bottom of the steering arm to except bolts that are taped into the the little holes you can see in the top insert. Loosen 5 bolts, add/remove shims, tighten bolts, done.

You don't need a new steering arm to adjust king pin, just screw in the upper b/j in farther. On a conventional upright you change kpi,SCRUB,toe, camber curves, and geometry when you change camber. With this style you do Still change scrub so you design in some scrub so it doesn't go from possitive to neg when changing camber. Overall it added very little weight to add all the flexibility. The only way I'd do solid now is if I had the money to have multiple titanium uprights and needed to save every ounce (F1).

I've been working on pricing these as I've already have had several interested. I'm thinking $180 for a set but I'm going to do the first couple at $150 to see if I can still make it proffitable. This puts the the same or less then MII spindles from speedways. I've seen the hubs from $65 a set new on ebay but they are everywere in junkyards. I'll also make changes for different hubs if needed. Anyone know how much the kits for the Gibbs book are running?

Author:  JagLite [ January 28, 2009, 5:17 pm ]
Post subject:  Upright design

Ah, yes, I understand now. :shock:

The milled slot to capture the nut for the upper bolt has not been cut in the underside of the plate in the pictures.
That will work good and allow replacing the lock nut when needed.

I had guessed the small holes were to be tapped as you say to help reinforce the steering arm.

A great design that is befitting the Locost goals!

Good of you to offer to make & sell them too.

James 8) :shock:

Author:  motive [ January 29, 2009, 12:42 am ]
Post subject: 

I was talking with a friend about the uprights and he asked why spent the time to mill the large hole the hub fits in. He thought it would save time to just open it up with an oversized holesaw (which he knew I had.) Anyway I thought it would be good to mention to anyone thinking of building there own that a precision hole is required to keep the hub from moving around. Don't expect the bolts to locate the hub in any stationary manner. It would have the same problem as useing a bolt thats threads are inside the hole in a bracket. Parts will wear on eachother, oversizing holes, speeding up the problem and most likey causing bolt failer first. goodby wheel!

Ok, now that I warned you, you can do anything you want. I know this isn't much encouragement for those that want to fabricate uprights without machine work but I felt it was important to warn everyone of a potential danger.

Author:  motive [ January 30, 2009, 12:07 am ]
Post subject: 

After I posted I realized that I didn't clarify one thing. Only hubs that bolt from the back and have a portion that fit into a reccess need a precision hole to locate the hub. Some hubs bolt from the front like the Camry one I thought of useing or the one a.moore used. These hubs have smooth holes on the mounting face and can use the grip (smooth part of the shank of a bolt) to locate the hub without the threads trying to saw through anything. This would be the kind of hub to use if you are unable to make a precision hole.

In other news, after waiting 3 weeks for a guy to bend my roll bars I finnally got them today so will be able to more forward with the cassis! If I'd known it would have taken this long and he didn't have my steel, I probly would have ordered up the correct die. At least he didn't charge much. He was out of town because his 15year old daughter got a schollership to a Nascar development program and had to go to Cali for a couple weeks. Can't say I blame him for taking off. I did get to check out her alcohol Focus powered midget car. I got to say parents are putting their teenagers in way too nice of cars these days!

Author:  motive [ February 5, 2009, 1:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

Roll bars and front hoop are in. Although I like how they came out I wish I would have made the bends alittle different. I drew them up in cad and they looked real good compared to the cad seats. Then I made a mockup of only one roll bar and it looked good. If I would have done both sides I would have realized that the whole thing wasn't ideal. The lesson here is that just because you can draw something on a cad program that looks good, don't assume that everything fits. Its expessially hard to draw the human body. I believe I'll change my cad drawing so that when I release them other builders can build their cars with perfect hindsight. Bending up the sidebars tomorrow. you can see how they are mocked up with wood in the pics. Also had to make a hightech plywood seat as the donor seat sat up way too tall.

File comment: Little helpers. My one year old makes great car noises for me
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File comment: roll hoops
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Author:  Driven5 [ February 5, 2009, 9:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

That is a great picture of your kids! Are they always that photogenic?...They're so cute that they almost make me want some little helpers of my own.

Author:  JSullivan [ February 5, 2009, 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

Your kids are adorable.

Author:  motive [ February 6, 2009, 12:23 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

Thanks guys! They are both hams for the camera. Ciara thinks she's a model and Dalin likes to be a clown when the camera comes out. Dalin already thinks the garage is the best room in the house. I actually used the build table to build him a car for Christmas befor I started my car!

File comment: first car off the build table
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Author:  Glen [ February 8, 2009, 1:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

Sorry to go back to the uprights. I've been thinking about them since you first posted them since I'd like to use the same kind of bearing/hub, but I hadn't gotten around to asking my questions.

What diameter wheel are they for? I know you already know this but seems like it may be worth stating that when making an upright from scratch it pays to put the "balljoints" as far apart as possible within the space of the wheel.

Do you have a plan for the caliper mounts?

Is it "front steer" or "rear steer"? I really like the tie rod being in plane with the upper arm, I was planning to do the same since it makes bumpsteer almost trivial to eliminate, but it makes rack placement a bit trickier and usually leads to a "front steer" arrangement.

Author:  motive [ February 9, 2009, 12:48 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

no problem Glen. the ball joint spacing was a compination of reverse engineering the suspension to work with an unmodified rack and keeping them far apart as possible. They ended up 10.5" apart with the hub centered inbetween them. the overall upright height is 12" plus the heads of the bolts for the rod ends. I don't think they would work in a 13" wheel but I could easily change them to fit. I plan on useing 15s or 17s depending on what I can afford (how many uprights I can sell) :wink: Caliper mounts are a simple weld on affair depending on rotor and caliper combination. In my car they will be used as a high mount rear steer. This might be a problem with a front engine car but a slightly different upper braket could be used to make them front steers. I also don't see why it wouldn't be possible to flip the hole thing over and do all the adjustments on the bottom if a bottom steer arangement was needed. Adding shims would add camber instead of reducing it. Of course the ball joint bolt holes would have to be moved to correct the KPI. There has been enough questions about these uprights that I really need to tidy up and dimension my cad drawings so I can get them posted. I do still have 20ft of the 2x4 .120 ($)tube I used to make these that I would like to get rid of. But even though I do hope to sell some of these uprights I hope I can help out others wanting to make there own. (maybe I'll just sell the raw material by the foot just to get it out of my garage.) I'll try to get the files posted sometime this week.

Author:  motive [ February 10, 2009, 2:41 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

Update for the weekend. Got the side bars done between the roll bars the the front roll hoop. What a PITA. I didn't draw the actual placement of these tubes in Solidworks as I wanted to mock them up to make sure they fit with bodyplacement. Even though I took measurements from the mockup it didn't give the correct fishmouths as the tube assemblies have a bent and are skewed in all three planes. After trial and error and error and error... of fitting up the first side I wrapped paper around the tube and traced the fishmouth. Then cut along the traceline and wrap the paper inside out around the tube for the otherside of the car and trim to the paper. the second side went much faster. I'll definatly have to draw in up now and unwrap it in solidworks so its easier for others to copy.

I really like how they turned out. they should improve side impact saftey, add lots of ridgity to the chassis as the sides are triangulated in all planes, give plenty of elbow room, and I think look great in round tube. I'm actually thinking about not skinning the sides to leave these tubes expossed. I think with an extended floor like the x-bow has, rock intrusion won't be that bad. At least not as bad as I've heard the Atoms are.

When I got tired of fitting up tubes, I also rebuilt and depowerd my steering rack so its ready to go.

File comment: side bar assembly.
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File comment: Dreaming!
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Author:  Driven5 [ February 10, 2009, 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

As a frame of reference, how wide is your chassis from outer edge to outer edge on the main hoop verticals?

Author:  blue devil [ February 10, 2009, 7:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

Haha wow we think alike. The side of my frame bows out at the elbow point just like that (ref the pics in my log). Those types of braces are exactly what I had planned. I'm just waiting to make them with round tube as they will pretty much be exposed for me too.

I wanted the bend for the extra room as well as I wanted the look. Making a straight side support structure would have been much easier, but far less unique.

Amazing build so far! Keep it up.

Author:  motive [ February 12, 2009, 12:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

main frame rails are 45" outside to outside. At the "elbow bend" its 49.5" inside to inside. with the high sides this little bit of extra room really helps. In an early mockup I tried them strait and kept hitting my elbows when I turned the steeringwheel.

Author:  SHREDPOWDER [ February 17, 2009, 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Motive's Open Source Middy

looks good! i'll have to swing by soon

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