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Has anyone been refused insurance due to having a roll bar on there Seven? ( Hagerty, here in Ontario, for one)
Apparently the concern is of head injuries when not wearing a helmet. I doubt that adding padding will change their mind and our cars are risky enough without the deletion of roll over protection.
Should I remove my roll bar just to get cheaper insurance options?

That is, indeed, a consideration. Unless you're on a race track often, the chances of a rollover in a Locost are (due to its extreme low center of gravity) very remote.

The chances of a rear-ender or side-impact collision in traffic, on the other hand, are much, much higher, and head-vs.-roll bar impacts of any substantive degree will most certainly have grave consequences for the occupants.

Unless you have a full cage, a roll bar is largely cosmetic, really. I have one, and it looks great. It even meets basic racing standards.

But, is it more a hazard than a help, at least in normal road traffic? Probably. I made mine removable, in case I decide its presence isn't worth the risk. No reasonable amount of padding will reduce the risk appreciably, and I don't want to be wearing a helmet when driving the car in traffic.

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Considering the number of high bumper height trucks on the road combined with the low height of these cars, I personally consider a roll bar to be for rear-end collisions almost as much as for roll over and track use. We're talking about cars where your head sits fully above all other structural elements of the car, and so do the bumpers you're frequently staring at...While your torso is typically harnessed firmly into place. There are also design considerations that can make roll bars safer in non-rollover situations...But unfortunately, convincing the insurance company to understand all of this this and make situationally dependent decisions is more than likely another matter entirely.

Alternatively...I'm sure they are more than willing to insure "targa top" cars.

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

Back when I built Kimini (a tube-frame mid-engine "Mini"), AAA at the time had just started advertising that they now insure specialty cars. This was BS.

They claimed that the roll cage said to them that it was a race car, and that if I could remove it(!) they would consider it. Um, no - ended up going with Grundy and never looked back.

As far as whether a bar or cage makes the car more or less safe is entirely up to each of us as builders.

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Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains
Both available from https://www.lulu.com/

OP, I had Hagerty insurance and the roll bar never came into question. But to be fair, Hagerty is simply an insurance agency. They are not the underwriting company actually doing the insurance. Depending on your actual location, the company varies. I see you are in Canada, that may have something to do with it too. Sorry you are having issues with Hagerty. Does Grundy offer insurance in CA?

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Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

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Unfortunately, Grundy do not offer insurance in Canada.

Too bad.

How about a compromise? Re-engineer the roll bar to be a bolt-in. Remove it when applying for the insurance. Then bolt it in once you get the insurance. A lot of OEM convertibles have aftermarket bolt-ins. Read the fine print in the policy to ensure it isn't invalid if you add a roll bar later.

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Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

It is a bolt-in so I could remove it for the street and add it back on for track days.

There is little structure in a Locost to attach a roll bar to, if a significant impact happens it will likely push right through the bottom of the car.
1 x 1 square tube does not match the strength of a roll bar.

For proper roll and impact protection a cage structure of adequate strength needs to be created around the occupants separate from the chassis and the seating and restraints have to be mounted to this cage.
Look at it as an escape pod that will remain intact protecting the occupants, allowing the rest of the car to collapse without compromising the cage.
Look at NHRA rules for cages and also what has recently been done with F1 regarding driver protection.

There is no structure in a Locost to properly attach a cage to so anything installed is mostly a feel good thing done for the benefit of rules mandated by insurance companies.
A real tech inspector would fail such an install but don't because there are few if any locost models that would qualify.
The other aspect of this topic is weight, to install a sufficient structure that would maintain integrity in anything more than a very soft (think "Laugh In" tricycle tipover) would mean trippling the strength of the frame members that pass through/form the passenger compartment at a minimum. This would easily equal the weight of a complete (cage less) Locost chassis. Doubling the weight of a Locost chassis would significantly impact it's handling and spoil the entire concept of the car.

Stick a roll bar in it if you have to to conform to "rules" but don't kid yourself about it's functionality.

A proper roll bar would need to be attached to 2"x2"x .120" wall tube perimiter with no splices or gaps at a minimum.
The cage would also need triangulation/crossbracing below behind and above the occupants.
This would be a minimum as no single loop bar will survive an angular impact or sliding on the roof without folding up.

If I was tech'ing a Locost I would be more worried about a driveshaft loop as tin will not contain a driveshaft spinning at 6000rpm. (even 5000)
And a collapsable steering column!

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Honey anyone?

I don't want to get into roll bar vs roll cage safety, except to say that their intended functions are different. It is a given that cages do give more overall protection of the driver. I would add "When properly used in conjunction with other safety equipment". It is the sanctioning body that determines the minimum requirements for a vehicle top pass tech inspection for an intended outing.

That being said, bolt on roll bars applied to space frame vehicles, can be made to fully comply with the current SCCA requirements.

Both roll bars and roll cages are intended to be used with helmets and most sanctioning bodies require high density foam to be applied to the roll bar where a helmet could contact it. That foam, as they call it, is HARD! I wouldn't want my bare head to hit it or the roll bar. I think this is why the insurance company doesn't like insuring cars with roll bars.

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766

A singular 1x1 square tube does not...But multiple triangulated to create 3-dimensional nodes has proven more than strong enough in practice to support a roll bar/cage. I've never seen or heard of any modern '7' type racecar, of which there are plenty (especially in Europe), whose roll bar/cage collapsed the rear bulkhead in an on-track wreck. In fact, multiple triangulated smaller tubes being equal or greater in strength to one larger tube is pretty much the entire point of tubular space-frame design.

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

Yes and no. Flip the car on its roof and a trianglar 1" chassis will be fine. Slide that same inverted chassis down the road at 60mph, and it would quickly wear through and collapse. Different horses for different courses.

I stuck mostly to the SCCA rule book for cage construction because they have real-world evidence about what works.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains
Both available from https://www.lulu.com/

I agree that SCCA has the real world experience with what works, although the SCCA seems to disagree that inverted roll bar road abrasion is a significant concern either.

Note that they specifically allow for 'low front hoop' cages (a roll bar with additional support) that can even have less total contact area (and less contact area per pound on a Locost) than a SCCA spec roll bar, and additionally have a thinner minimum wall thickness requirement than an equivalent SCCA spec roll bar as well.

Personally, I've also never seen nor heard of that being an issue in practice, especially not at road legal speeds which are on the slow end of race track speeds. Of course, even if there is reason for it to be of any significant concern, having a roll bar is still FAR better than just using your head...Be it helmeted or not.

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

I was rear ended last summer in my Miata, equipped with a roll bar. It was a very low speed collision at a stop light, but I did slide up the seat and hit the roll bar with my head (not seriously). The Miata was written off.
For this reason, I am also going to make the roll bar on my Locost removable.
cheers
Doug

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Sorry to hear of your experience. Were you wearing a seatbelt with an over-shoulder element to it? You know, the kind of standard, factory-installed configuration these days.

Thanks,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

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