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PostPosted: September 27, 2008, 7:51 pm 
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What prevents a 1000 cc BEC locost with open fenders from competing in SCCA's new F1000 class? The purpose of throwing this out there is to initiate a discussion on what classes of road racing (RACING, not time trial) a book-sized (or otherwise) locost can be raced without compromising Colin Chapman's original concept.

I searched this section but couldn't find a decent discussion on the subject. Back in England, the lucky bastards have a road-racing class of their own under the aegis of the 750 Motor Club. Of course, they have to make do with the silly Mk2 Ford Escort hardware, but still, racing is racing.

Oh, BTW, F1000 dimensional rules are these:

Dimension (Refer to FC drawing) Measurement (cm)
A. Maximum rear overhang from rear wheel axis 80
B. Maximum front overhang from front wheel axis 100
C. Maximum height measured from the ground 90
D. Exhaust height measured from the ground 20-60
E. Maximum height of any aerodynamic device Rim height
H. Maximum width of entire car 185
I. Maximum rear aerofoil width (includes endplates) 95
J. Maximum width of body and lower surface of the car behind the front wheels 150
K. Maximum front wing width 135
L. Minimum cockpit bodywork opening 45
M. Minimum cockpit parallel opening length 30
N. Minimum cockpit overall opening length 60
S. Maximum exhaust length from rear wheel axis 80
7. Minimum wheelbase 200
5 & 6. Minimum track 120
Maximum diffuser width 95
Maximum Body Width 150

In my limited knowledge, a locost chassis satisfies all of these requirements. Notice there is no requirement for the lateral or longitudinal placement of the driver or the engine within the wheelbase.

With the class minimum weight of 1000 lbs., and rules which specifically prohibit exotica allowed in DSR (which has made the latter a very expensive class to run in), I think locosts could be built to be fairly competitive in this class.

Discuss.


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PostPosted: September 27, 2008, 8:21 pm 
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The car I am envisioning would look something like this '70's Clubmans car, without the fenders of course:


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PostPosted: September 27, 2008, 9:17 pm 
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It would be legal, but I think you would get slaughtered by the more aerodynamic cars on track.

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PostPosted: September 27, 2008, 9:22 pm 
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How is the car shown in Post #2 less aerodynamic than the present cars?


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PostPosted: September 27, 2008, 9:38 pm 
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My question is why build a Locost for F1000 istead of a single seater ?
It will take as much effort to build the two cars.

Aerodynamics... Well the locost is going to have a larger frontal area since the chassis is much larger than a single seater. This one is going to be a killer.

The rear wing is not going to work as well since the driver is going to mess the air.

It's not as streamlined, the two pictures are a good example.

Airflow underneat the car, A single seater will give you more chance to use the diffuser as well as streamlin the rear end.

I understand your point, trust me I am extremelly jealous of what is going on in Europe... Here it's a diffrent story...

By the way have you look at the price of a Pheonix or a Sthor F1000 ?

Up here we have something similar but with 750cc Motorcycle engines... I'm actually thinking of doing my Terrapin project as one...

Fred


Last edited by Anonymous on September 27, 2008, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: September 27, 2008, 9:47 pm 
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The_Pipefather wrote:
How is the car shown in Post #2 less aerodynamic than the present cars?

I think he means the Locost-shaped car would be badly beat by the formula-type cars. I agree.

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PostPosted: September 27, 2008, 10:15 pm 
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The newer cars are much cleaner then the car in post 2, but that car could be cleaned up in similar ways.

I don't see how you get the driveshaft under the driver. Your starting out with compromises the competition won't have.

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PostPosted: September 28, 2008, 8:38 am 
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All of the points you guys have mentioned are true in theory, but one thing to consider is that Mallock U2's and other clubmans cars have turned in lap times close to or sometimes better than F2 and F3 cars of the period, with much worse aero. The latter are very similar to the modern day F1000, so I don't see why not??

If you have 10 or 20 people interested enough to build a locost-type car for F1000, then I think that could be the start to some very close road-racing action for this type of car in America. Show me one class here where you could have fairly similar locosts (not an unrestricted or open class) racing closely. Sure, with a radically different concept you won't start at the front of the grid, but with enough people and enough interest I think the cars could have potential.

F1000 was conceived as a "low-cost" class of sorts but then the wise guys in SCCA decided to make it another "Stohr" (read $60000 arrive-and-drive cars) class.

"Why would you build a traditional locost when you can build a single seater"?

For the pure fun of thrashing a formula type single seater with an old clubmans-style car. Is that reason enough? :D


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PostPosted: September 28, 2008, 11:57 am 
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Look at some of the Nasa classes. Read up on Moti's build. He's actually building a car with a particular class in mind. If he does well, you might see others trading their Hondas for Locosts. :P

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PostPosted: September 28, 2008, 6:18 pm 
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The_Pipefather wrote:
"Why would you build a traditional locost when you can build a single seater"?

For the pure fun of thrashing a formula type single seater with an old clubmans-style car. Is that reason enough? :D


Then Just Do It.... Don't ask what other people think... Especially here...

If you have questions about the legality of the car, well the only people that can help you are the SCCA. Not us. It's not a bad idea to visit the races, talk to the competitors, but in the end ity's the SCCA that will decide if the car is legal or not...

I hear you about the F1000 situation... Problem is as soon as the pro builders think that there a big enought market, they jump right in... Unfortunettly the rule makers let the door open for them to get in... That's the beaty about F4 up here, market is way too small :wink:

If you believe in it, build it... You learn a lot, you'll test your premises, if your wrong well you can always build a single seater, if your right you'll be able to improve the concept... Just keep a build log on the site, I want to see this built, and don't let anyone tell you it ain't gonna work after you get the OK from the SCCA.

Cheers,

Fred


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PostPosted: September 28, 2008, 8:43 pm 
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Fred:

I might, eventually, if I ever build a locost this is what it is going to be meant for. But right now I just dont have the space or the resources.

The idea behind this thread was to generate discussion on classing locost-type cars in existing SCCA and other series. Looks like there is not much interest in road racing here. And for good reason too, I mean who would spend 5 years building a car only to risk a crash the very first outing on track.

chetcpo:

I read Moti's build and got the impression he is building it for mainly NASA time trial or unlimited class racing. I am not talking about that kind of car, I'm talking about something that will fit into a class that is cheap, fun and can be competitive with the rest of the more conventional single-seater type cars. Well, I guess there's not much use talking about it so much as building one and showing its possible :D .


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PostPosted: September 28, 2008, 11:16 pm 
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I think it's a fine idea. The cars just need to race against themselves. Trying to fit them into the formula classes really won't work.

It's actually exactly what I want to do. I think plenty of people would like to do that. Maybe your saying if enough people people entered the F1000 class with Locosts and clogged up the back of the field, SCCS would give us our own class? That works for me. Don't think you'll easily beat a formula car though... Having two seats or a drive shaft between your bum cheeks won't help your lap times...

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PostPosted: September 29, 2008, 8:30 am 
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horizenjob wrote:
Maybe your saying if enough people people entered the F1000 class with Locosts and clogged up the back of the field, SCCS would give us our own class?


Eventually if that happens, its great. I am thinking of this as an "open-source" project, much like the Megasquirt ECU. Anything is possible if you have hundred or even ten like-minded people developing the same thing over the internet.


horizenjob wrote:
Having two seats or a drive shaft between your bum cheeks won't help your lap times...


Doesnt have to. Here's a Mallock Clubmans car, note its a single seater with the gearbox by the side of the driver's hips. Also note that a modern motorcycle engine can be packaged much better than that old lump, and the chassis in front can be narrowed down considerably for better aero:


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PostPosted: September 29, 2008, 9:07 am 
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The_Pipefather wrote:
I read Moti's build and got the impression he is building it for mainly NASA time trial or unlimited class racing.
The rules set he is building to has both Time Trial and Road Racing equivalent classes. The class in question is not unlimited, but rather must be an actual production car (or approved replica) and puts all the cars on a level playing field through power to weight ratio restrictions. Any car that can be called a Lotus 7 replica will be much more competitive built to this class structure than F1000. Unfortunately SCCA does not have such a class. So with SCCA you would be running a regional-only unlimited class more for the fun of it, depending who else shows up that day, if anybody.

If you want to be competitive in any class, you must carefully understand the rules and choose/design a car that can be build to the absolute limit of them.

The real question is...If you want to run F1000 and would build a car specifically for it, why not just design a real no compromises F1000 car?

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PostPosted: September 29, 2008, 5:32 pm 
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The_Pipefather wrote:
chetcpo:

I read Moti's build and got the impression he is building it for mainly NASA time trial or unlimited class racing. I am not talking about that kind of car, I'm talking about something that will fit into a class that is cheap, fun and can be competitive with the rest of the more conventional single-seater type cars. Well, I guess there's not much use talking about it so much as building one and showing its possible :D .

PF -

I need to check if I specified it in my build log or not, but I did write in other threads about my racing plan a bit.
I'm building my car for NASA ST2, definitely not any unlimited class because I'll get killed by some full on racing monsters.
NASA's Super Touring is a competitive road racing class and not just time trials.
I'd like to do some time trials regardless 8) .

I highly recommend checking out this thread -
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2884

And, I do agree with what some of the previous posters already said, I think you'll get slaughtered by single seaters with full aero, but I'll be happy for you if you prove us all wrong :wink: ...

Moti

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