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I splitted the original topic, this is where it got really far OT.


Autox in general seems like a huge waste of time and money when compared to track days.
This is the reason I pretty much lost interest in autox in general, nevermind building a competitive car for a specific autox class.

Moti

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Moti

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Moti

For most of my effort I am within 2 hours of (2 or 3) events at least most weekends....it takes me that long to get to work so it isn't a big deal. Nationals is 1X a year, people go that far just to watch big time racing, let alone participate. AutoX is much safer than being on a track with cars 2-3x your weight and without the risk of going into a tire barrier (or cement wall) at 100+ MPH. IT is a much different game than a track day and it is easy to justify to yourself whatever level of investment you want to make your car faster.... Whether it is a street registered locost moved to slicks for an afternoon or a purpose built car to win autocrosses, it still isn't going to be that much money and will be a lot of fun.

Probably for the money, and effort, a sports racer is a much better track day car...much safer aerodynamics and parts that are designed for door to door racing.

Personally, I'd love to see the rules relaxed on the mod classes in SCCA so that we could run full nitromethane or use nitrous injection, etc. There are lots of people that run all over the place just for 3 or 4 seven second runs and a few burnouts. I think of autocrossing as more of drag racing around corners than road racing. The duty cycle on the different systems of the car are closer to that than 20 minutes of running around a road course.

Especially when it takes 2-3 years to build a car... The F993 is were I want to spend my time

But I do enjoy the Solo2 a lot... And there is a huge attraction for me for a Turbo D-mod Se7en... but this would be more of a Technical/Engineering/Fabrication challenge... The truth is that to build this car I can't do it alone... I don`t know how anyone can... I`m actually suprised of not seing Team built cars in Solo 2...

Cheers,

Fred

HPDEs have autocross and track beat.

No specific class rules to adhere to, you get to run when and where you want to. Costs are lower than track, but higher than autocross (unless you are going national level autocross).

You do have limited passing zones, but that's part of making it safer. They try to group people of equal skills and while car speeds might vary that means less than you think when you have a good driver in the slower car.

It's all about the fun! It's all about learning! It's all about being Fangio in your head!!

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mobilito ergo sum
I drive therefore I am

I can explain it to you,
but I can't understand it for you.

You are, if not as formally as in someplace like NASCAR....at least among most of the winners.

I like autox but then again I am part of an autox club that has been described as "a drinking club with a driving problem". HPDE/track time is fun but its not that different than autox. After 4-5 laps around, I am not likely to get any faster and just reinforce bad habits or increase the likelihood something on my car will protest too much. Regardless both are fun and for me more of a social gathering than anything else.

And that's kind of where AutoX melts for me. My problem isn't the travel time (frequent local AutoX events) but the sense of value I get from a day or weekend at the track vs a day at an AutoX. The last time I did the math it turned out that the actual cost per minute of track time was noticeably lower for Time Trials, HPDEs & even racing. The prep cost & car maintenance go up with track events, but I personally find them far more satisfying.


I agree right up to the point where just driving around the track as fast as possible is no longer enough. It eventually happens to just about everyone that does enough track days. And then come Time Trials .. competition without door to door requirements. And then eventually comes racing if you can't shake the bug. That's where I'm at now; I want to race.

And when did this thread derail? As I was finishing this up I just looked back at the title .. um, sorry for being wildly OT.

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.. in the world

I dont know where this post started and dont know why I'm adding my .02 but I'm not much of a fan of autoX. Yes I did autoX for a few seasons but it was because in the area I was living in, there wasnt much of a choice. Given if you live in an area that autoX is easier or more frequent then track days, I'm all for it. If you live in an area that there are just as many track days as autoX, I would suggest switching to track days. Dollar for dollar track days give you much more experience for your money spent. If your into the social part of it, stay with your friends, try to talk them into going to a track day with you maybe.

I've never hear someone put it this way, and it does make alot of sence. People will go threw great lengths to do what gives them that rush. It doesnt really matter if its 4 seconds down a drag strip, 30 seconds around an autoX, 1 sec off a dirt bike jump, a 20 minute sprint car race, a 3 hour enduro, or a 10 year build project, if you got that rush while doing it, that all the reason for doing it.

Stupid joke I came up with but you can use it too. All men think they do 2 things well, sex and driving. With driving if you went fast enough that you got a rush, you thought you did it right. With sex, if you got there, thats enough to make you think you did it great.

I don't think I'll ever be able to kick autox completely, even if I do get more into TT and/or W2W. I've done quite a bit of autox and a number of track days, and we'll see what ultimately happens when I finally have a significantly faster car, but there is more to driving than $/minute of seat time when most of that time is spent in straight lines trying to get to the next interesting part (corner)...Especially in regards hp limited cars. Autox hands down provides far and away the most car-control-experience/minute of seat time while being much lower overall cost in entry fees, maintenance, support/safety equipment, and potential for complete vehicle loss. I also have yet to drive a car that is fast enough to make a lap of a road course provide the same driving intensity as even a much slower, and generally speaking much cheaper, car in an autox. And in many areas of the country you can find an autox within a few hours drive nearly every weekend throughout the entire racing season, where you get to hone your skills of adaptation (rather than repetition) to learn a completely new course each and every time.


Autox is not different in this regard than any other form of motorsport. You either run for fun without caring about what class your vehicle preparation level bumps you into, or you build a car specifically to exploit the rules of a particular class to their fullest extent in order to be competitive.


...But that's just my $0.02.

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

My thing is that when you dedicate a whole day to drive to the location and back, do all your car prep, do a 1.5-2 work shift in putting cones back where they belong and all this for 3 minutes of driving, that's a bit too much.

I'm not even talking about spending the money on building a competitive car for some class.
To me it seem like a particularly bad idea, and I'd feel the same way about drag racing (but I couldn't care less about drag racing anyway, I guess I don't live my life a quarter mile at the time ).

The inner politics of the local SCCA didn't help my opinion either.
Each to his own I guess.

I personally find track driving much more interesting.
While one may find his kicks driving at the limit of what the car can do in a parking lot at 30 MPH, I find that dicing it with other drivers at speed is far more exciting.
My personal experience at track driving mainly contains fast cars, so it might make a difference.
There's something about dive bombing a corner on the wrong line to get in front of that Ferrari that you've been getting closer to in the last three laps, or getting ready to pull to either side of the track when there's a Lotus Elise right in front of you that is just about ready to spin out.
No autocross can give you what it feels to land back on the ground after you just got airborne.

There's also another component to it - the track itself.
For example, drive the flat Portland intl raceway and you'll find it somewhat boring comparing to Buttonwillow or Thunderhill, both feature seriously blind corners and major elevation changes.

JMHO,

Moti

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Moti

My R1 powered Locost build log

Visit the Blackbird Fabworx Facebook Page!

I definitely don't discount the intensity of the competitive aspect of W2W at all, as that is one of the most important parts of what makes the driving truly exciting. But not everybody can afford, mentally or monetarily, to just roll their car off a cliff either...And if you can't afford to do that, you can't afford to go W2W.

While a whole day to get only 5 of the most intense precision car-control minutes you can safely experience may not be for everybody, it absolutely has its benefits that make it very good for the majority of drivers/builders in my humble opinion. Especially like mcfandango said, when it becomes a social event for automotive/racing enthusiasts as much as it is a driving event.

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

I was talking about track days and HPDE, not w2w.
The higher you go in the driving group the more intense it becomes, but the beauty of it is that you can still back off whenever you feel like.
At the highest drivers group we get to have lots of fun dicing it wit each other and it is certainly a social group as well, which must be something about being one of the regulars regardless to being autox, track or a dirt oval, for all it matters.

I look at it as the 3-4 minutes of intense driving versus 80-90 minutes of intense driving.
Car control skills can certainly be learned and honed by autocrossing and track driving.
I don't discount the safety of autox but at the same time let's note that track days aren't a demolition derby either.
I've been to 80+ track days and have only seen a single contact between cars which ended up in a clipped bumper and a broken turn signal.
Yes there are single driver crahses, but than again, they are pretty rare and mainly occur with those who try too hard.
Keep it cool and you'll be fine.



Moti

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Moti

My R1 powered Locost build log

Visit the Blackbird Fabworx Facebook Page!

OK lets add more fuel to the fire.

How about HILLCLIMBS!!!! Totally insane. Check with you life insurance policy first.

After I get the kids out of college, I actually want to do this

Mark

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Building a whole car from scratch is a 1,000 little tasks, done 1 task at a time, while thinking 10 tasks ahead, then redoing it anyway.
South Bend Region SCCA D-Modifed Class Autocross & Track-Day/TT. Chevrolet 1.4 L Turbo Ecotec Power


Link to my build log:
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=3356

But first you'd have to have a hill to climb. I live in Texas.

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mobilito ergo sum
I drive therefore I am

I can explain it to you,
but I can't understand it for you.

Let's be clear, they limit stock class cars to highway speeds- 70 MPH, not 30. With most auto-x sevens that maintain corner speed better and accelerate much faster, the speeds are much higher....just generally not for long...a long straight in a solo event is generally a few hundred feet in my experience.

Every organization I've ever been in has politics and the rest of the egos we have to deal with....part of being in an organization.

Whether it be wheel to wheel racing or track events sharing the track with others or having sustained speeds in excess of 100 MPH, the level of risk is considerably higher...you also add a lot more cost and wear on your vehicle.

Autocrossing has its place, as do the rest. Sevens are particularly well suited to smaller venues....against anything other than another seven they are almost guaranteed to lose the inertia and toughness battle. Building a seven for SCCA offers a pretty large range of options to innovate and make some pretty neat engineering decisions unavailable elsewhere....you can skimp on a lot of things on a pure Solo-II car and still have it be light and fast....it only has to survive a few minutes of full out running before it gets to rest and cool off and get ready to do it again.

We get it, you don't like autocrosses. I'll disagree with you about them being a waste of time or effort and offer that they give people to opportunity without a lot of cost to get out and expand their driving abilities....you could look at them as one of the gateway drug for auto enthusiasts. Every activity from wine drinking (White Zinfandel anyone) to hunting (game farms) has them, and they get more people involved, which IMHO is always a good thing. IT also lets people compete (Which they shouldn't be doing in any formal extent at a track day). Bragging rights are always worth something. I'd just like to see more people get out and do these things....track days, autocrosses, spec miatas, watching live professional races, whatever.... it's all good fun. Just don't do the Fast and Furious things and kill innocent bystanders.

Mike