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 Post subject: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 2:00 am 
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Joined: November 8, 2013, 7:52 pm
Posts: 17
I suppose a little introduction first:
I'm originally from southeast Pa, but I'm active duty navy and am currently living in San Diego.
I've been a fan of these forums for a few years now and got the book ~2 years ago.
I started reading everything I could to gather information
(here included, thank you everyone who knows WAY more than I do)
and now that I finally have a garage big enough to house a project, here I am.
On to the question.
So I'm starting the collection of tools, and later pieces, to start on a build.
I seem to be a bit confused as to which welder to get.
I see the term MIG thrown around a lot and I used to work in a factory with welders so I'm mildly familiar with the concept.
Now I'm reading about flux core wire on MIG machines and that's a bit off since there isn't any gas involved it really should be just M welding.
I watched the requisite youtube videos and went on forums and miller's website and it all seems to say the same basic thing,
flux core can make a strong weld, it's just messy.
That being said, I know there are restrictions in different race organizations on the type of welding used for things like roll cages and such.
I know the strength of the weld comes from penetration, the skill of the person using it and the wire/filler material matching properly with the metal being welded.
So are the dirty area and excess smoke the only downsides to flux core?
Can it be used to weld the frame?
Can I get a good enough machine, gas or flux, to weld while only using 115V outlets?


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 9:00 am 
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Location: Cornelius OR
115v Yes, I believe you can weld up to 3/16 with that. The thickest material you will likely weld for a locost is 1/8"

Flux core No - Ick

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 9:20 am 
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Location: central Arkansas
A friend has a cheap flux core MIG. I've used it at his place. It works. In fact, it actually works very well in windy areas or when working inside a vee... but the flux core makes for a dirty workpiece and you wind up doing a lot of cleaning.

If you already had a flux core MIG and were used to it, I'd say to just carry on. But starting from scratch, you'd probably be a lot happier with a regular MIG with a gas bottle.

That said... not only are gas MIGs noticeably more expensive, you have to buy or lease a bottle, and in many places, getting them filled is little better than rape. After years of dealing with my (un)friendly (un)local welding shop, I found that the local Tractor Supply Co. will swap welding bottles for substantially less; if I never walk into the welding shop's door again, that's fine with me.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 9:41 am 
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Joined: November 16, 2015, 2:38 pm
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Location: Outside Hartford, CT
It's all about personal preference. Flux core runs hotter, so you can get more penetration and "proper" welds on thicker materials using similar amperage between flux wire and MIG. Flux also is gasless and the machines/initial purchase costs are way cheaper, but you are limited to basically mild steel with your welding.

If you prep properly, flux core welds are just as easy - if not a little more labor intensive - to clean than traditional mig. flux core welds are much harder to make look aesthetically pleasing. because flux runs hotter, especially if you are a novice welder, you will find yourself punching through 16ga steel much more often, especially on the butt joints our chassis so often call for.

With a little pre heating, .035 wire and proper prep, I've successfully welded 1/4" plate with a 90 amp flux core welder with no issue.

Standard GWAM is much more forgiving than flux core.

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 2:31 pm 
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Joined: November 13, 2009, 9:31 pm
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Location: Connecticut
First off, welcome and more importantly, thank you for serving!

As far as welding, most people refer to wire feed welding as MIG, even though as you said with flux core you don't add the IG.
Flux core and gas shielded use opposite polarity (if done right), so flux core has deeper penetration.
Gas shielded has a better looking weld, requires less post work to look good.
Using a spray on spatter guard helps a bit with cleaning up the mess from flux core.
flux core as was mentioned is better outdoors as the shielding is better.
Gas shielded smokes less and is a bit nicer indoors, but you need good ventilation with either.
And technically, you should use different gasses when welding overhead vs. 'right-side-up', but in practical application, it isn't really an issue for what we do.

I would recommend getting a machine that can be retrofit with gas in the future if you can't afford it right off, the cleaner welds are nice, and with the thin tube we use you get less burn-through issues with gas shielded. Flux is good for heavier bits.

If you can get someone to let you try both, you can see the differences for yourself.

Hope that's not too long and disjointed...

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 4:47 pm 
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Joined: May 27, 2006, 9:46 pm
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
I started off back in the late '70s with oxyacetylene, when MIG was still a rumor. I got pretty comfortable with OA, but dreamed of the day when MIG would come to fruition. I got to try gasless MIG first and, while I liked it, it was (as others have said) very dirty, with lots of spatter to clean up afterwards. Eventually, I got a cheap, used gas MIG, and I loved it. It was a 110 volt machine and, while it would work on a normal 15 amp circuit, it had to be a clean circuit, not shared with much other draw sources. As long as I welded VERY slowly with it, I could get full penetration on up to 3/16" steel.

The downside of many of the 110V machines is their duty cycle. As they're intended for very light duty use, the duty cycle is limited, and exceeding it regularly will lead to expensive breakdowns (ask me how I know!). Most have thermal overload protection, kind of like a breaker, but tripping it too many times will eventually lead to failure. If (as it was in my case) the machine is not a name brand, finding replacement parts can be trying.

So - my advice would be to shop around, and consider spending a little more to get a name brand machine. I now have a Miller 190 - an exceptional machine, and surprisingly inexpensive (I'm seeing them in the US, brand new, at $889)- I will never need another welder in my lifetime.

I can get parts for it, virtually anywhere in the world. It's a 240V machine, so I had to wire in an extra 50 amp outlet for it. This was actually very easy, indeed and, while I was at it, I built a 20' extension cord/outlet for it, so I can reach every part of my 24'X26' shop with ease. I no longer have to weld sloooowly, penetration on even thick steel is a no-brainer, welding is several times faster, and I'll probably never even approach the duty cycle.

In addition, it has "Autoset", which means settings are far simpler than other machines - dial the wire thickness you're using & the thickness of the material you're welding, and the welder does the rest, all by itself.

As a bonus, the machine is designed for a plug-'n-play spool gun for welding aluminum (I just bought the spool gun a couple of weeks ago).

There are lots of welders out there, including HF quality ones, which will also do the job for you, for a lot less money. You need to consider whether you'll want to continue to use the machine for other things after your build - in my case, it's like the saying "to someone with a hammer, everything looks like a nail" - even as a home-shop amateur fabricator, I do a LOT of welding...largely, because I can.

If you only want a welder for a single build, and have no intentions of welding anymore after that, I'd go with a HF or similar unit. You won't get much for it on resale, and you'll have to be careful not to over stress it, but it will work.

Hope that helps...

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 5:34 pm 
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Joined: August 19, 2014, 5:17 pm
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Location: England
I think I would use a stick welder over that flux core wire, I dont doubt they produce a weld of adequate strength but they just look wrong.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 5:47 pm 
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Location: Outside Hartford, CT
I don't know bob.. you should see some of the amateur stick welds we get over here.. lol

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 6:44 pm 
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1055 wrote:
I don't know bob.. you should see some of the amateur stick welds we get over here.. lol


Some of the welding on here looks a little scary but I think they have gagged enough on in most cases not to have a failure :shock:

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 7:27 pm 
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Location: West Chicago,IL
I have an off-brand 115V MIG welder. Co-incidentally, the same model as Ron Champion shows in "the book". I learned early to use gas. The flux core just burned thru the thin steel. I also use exclusively .023, .024, or .025 wire for everything, even on splicing my axles. Once I got those two things figured out, life was wonderful. (Unless I am welding vertically that is. :ack: )

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 25, 2016, 7:40 pm 
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Thank you to everyone that replied.
I was only planning on building one or two frames, but I hate breaking tools.
I'll probably go with something that can do both just in case.
As far as amateur welds go, I'm not the kind to jump into anything,
so I'll either take a class at one of the tech schools/CC in the area
or take a hammer to everything I weld until I get it right.

Just for the sake of newbies like myself, is there any way you guys could make a sticky thread detailing the different methods of welding and maybe your personal preferences for each/a review of your machines?
What a good weld looks like and when to cut it off and start again?


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 26, 2016, 10:30 am 
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Location: central Arkansas
Almost all the welds on a Locost are onto sheet metal, which is what .062" wall tubing is. That means you have to learn the speed/feed/motion with the handpiece to not burn right through the workpiece. That's not rocket surgery, it's a plain old manual skill like tying a knot one-handed or juggling. You just have to practice. You don't have to learn to V-weld into 2" thick slabs of steel, deal with exotic alloys, inert gas boxes, cosmetic fish scales, pre or -post heat treating, or any of the other things a "real" welder has to know.

Also, since you're only welding sheet metal your hardware requirements are quite modest. You don't need an expensive welder with more modes than a sewing machine to get the job done. You just need to melt some thin stuff together with lightning.

A welding course will give you confidence and give you a start on many different kinds of welding. If it's practical for you to take one, I recommend it.

I didn't have the option of taking a course. I made just about every mistake possible. And it's downright amazing how uncoordinated an adult can be. Just stick with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 26, 2016, 10:48 am 
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zetec7 wrote:
...There are lots of welders out there, including HF quality ones,...

That's the first time I've ever seen "HF" and "quality" (in a good way) in the same sentence.

I took a city college welding course which (somewhat ironically) only dealt with gas and stick welding. I talked to weldors I know and reluctantly spent the money on a TIG - best decision I ever made. Yes I know they're expensive, but they really are a one-machine solution to all your welding needs. However, if my budget had been <$1000, yes, I'd go with the Miller (or equivalent) MIG unit.

One thing to keep firmly in mind is that while everyone always concentrates on how thick a material a given welder can do, the quality and finesse (and expense) of a good welder comes from how thin a material it can weld.

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 26, 2016, 5:17 pm 
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Location: England
KB58 wrote:

One thing to keep firmly in mind is that while everyone always concentrates on how thick a material a given welder can do, the quality and finesse (and expense) of a good welder comes from how thin a material it can weld.


And that normally comes down to whether or not the wire feed is a quality unit , with an erratic wire feed you dont stand a chance of producing a decent weld. That said I have helped friends out with welders in the past and found drive wheel slipping, rusty wire, shrouds full of spatter and choked up liners, in some cases all of these :BH: while at the same time blaming the set.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Buying a welder
PostPosted: January 27, 2016, 9:42 am 
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Location: Outside Hartford, CT
KB58 wrote:
zetec7 wrote:
...There are lots of welders out there, including HF quality ones,...

That's the first time I've ever seen "HF" and "quality" (in a good way) in the same sentence.



Image

HF $90, 90 amp unit!

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