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PostPosted: July 1, 2019, 4:13 pm 
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Joined: January 14, 2006, 1:06 pm
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Location: Vista (north of San Diego CA)
Yup, you are already over qualified. I had similar experience as you but a little less maybe. My Locost has been on the road for ten+ years now. Unless you have the exact same donor as whatever plans you settle on, do your own sketches of the frame and such. Little details make a difference. I started with the original Champion book and the simple drawings in it. But then I decided to plus size things to fit me and my donor. Doing the sketches came in handy with the bodywork also. It was my first experience with fiberglass too.

So bottom line, buy that MIG, get the parts, do some sketches and jump in.

John


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PostPosted: July 2, 2019, 1:11 pm 
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Been reading a lot more about everything and brainstorming about possible builds. So many options.

I'm pretty sure I am going to go with the following based on my research:
- Small chassis. Book or even smaller. I really want the Caterham look and form factor. I know the book chassis is bigger than the standard Caterham and slightly narrower by 1" compared to their SV. So, depending on the donor I will try to get it as small as I can but I think book chassis is a good starting point.

I don't plan on driving it long distances so reclining seats and lots of legroom, etc. isn't required. This isn't going to be a daily driver. Just a fun weekend car for the occasional non-competitive track day and autocross as well as spirited canyon driving.

- 300hp goal. I'm not dead set on the number but getting anywhere near it would be great.

Something equal to the Caterham 620r in terms of performance would be great. Also decided to go with Miata for suspension and possibly the diff.

I'm trying to narrow down potential powertrain donors but at the Caterham size, it seems like there aren't many options for the horsepower requirement.



Options:
1) I really want the S2000 engine, I love the way it drives and love the transmission. A F20c/F22c would be ideal but I don't think it'll fit into a book chassis as I'm reading it barely fits in a 442e. I could have it stick out of a cut in the hood. Not terrible since it would mainly be the rectangular Honda valve cover that sticks out, and the S2000 valve cover looks nice.

I am also seeing that the majority of the size discrepancy between the Miata and S2000 engine is in the oil pan. The S2000 is really tall and the oil pan with sump is not helping.

What do you guys think about the option of cutting the oil pan and reducing it's height by 2 inches? I dont even know if it's possible or the mechanical implications behind a smaller oil pan but I imagine heat could be an issue.


2) Miata Engine with Turbo - seems like the miata is a really tight fit for the original 7 frame size but can be done. I don't know if a turbo will fit though?

This will simplify the process a little bit because rather than getting 2 donors (1 Miata for suspension/brakes/differential and another for engine/trans/ecu), I can just find a decent Miata donor with low miles. I read the stock internals can hold up to around 220rwhp or so. Which is probably around 260hp to the crank. I can live with that.

But the only thing I don't like about the Miata powertrain is the short gearing. The S2000 goes up to 9000 and it sounds way better.


3) CA18DET - Starts at 180hp and with turbo can get to 300hp, which is fine with me. Not sure about the cost difference because I would need to get the engine/trans/ecu + Miata donor and then cut the driveshaft to fit the Miata diff.

I saw this video and in the video description it says Ron Champion locost so I imagine it's the original small size. But based on the mods, definitely does not seem "low cost".

https://youtu.be/7NqSOrtb8cM?t=13

4) Last option is to go mid-rear. I wouldn't have the same engine size constraints and have more space to put the engine in the rear which allows me to keep the chassis smaller and closer to the Caterham.

K20 motor with boost can get to 300hp and a 2zz motor can get to mid-high 200hp.



Any other possible donors that fit the requirements that I missed? I'm sure there are a lot but that's the only one I can think of.

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PostPosted: July 2, 2019, 2:21 pm 
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Joined: February 22, 2017, 10:47 am
Posts: 18
Location: Raleigh NC
Hi David, and welcome to this awesome site. I'm mostly a lurker here but I'm going to offer three bits of advice that are good for everyone, and ones that I wish I'd done when I first started. (most of you have probably already done these things but I'm going to say them anyway)

1) Please add your location to your profile. Members are more likely to respond, offer advice, help, etc if they know where you are. Also, they will stop asking repeatedly where you are. Ditto the above for adding your name to your signature.

2) You may have already done so but start getting organized NOW. Make a bookmarks folder with subfolders like Plans, Suppliers, Parts, Useful videos (like on welding, fabrication, suspension geometry, alignment, painting), etc. Be sure to title them with keywords that will allow you to find them later, and add notes if your browser allows it. I can't count how many times I've recalled seeing something in a video or on a webpage that I wanted to see again but it was either difficult or impossible to find it. :evil: A hardcopy folder or 3-ring binder is also a fine idea. And lists, make lots of lists. A list of the steps your project will go thru (buy donor, disassemble, position drivetrain and suspension, plan frame, acquire tubing/parts, build frame), a list of the hundreds of things, both major and minor, that you will need for your project (you won't believe how many little things you just won't think of in the beginning, and they add up in a hurry), lists of ideas and parts that you think might work, as well as the ones that won't work, and why (this trans/diff/steering rack won't fit because xyz). You mentioned electrical in your OP and nothing helps me do wiring more than staying organized and remembering to take it one step at a time.

3) And since many people (myself included) often forget to do this, BACK UP EVERYTHING THAT'S IMPORTANT, SOMEWHERE OTHER THAN YOUR PRIMARY COMPUTER! i.e. back up any plans/pics/links/contacts/notes to the cloud/another computer/an external drive/optical disks/thumbdrive if losing them would make you cry into your beer. You just never know what can happen: your hard drive can crash, someone could steal your computer, a ransomware virus could encrypt it, a house fire could destroy it. And back things up on a regular schedule, because otherwise you might forget to do so for, I dunno, a year or two, and you'd lose all that effort. Don't ask me how I know. ( :( )


As far as the questions you had my response would be as follows:

1) Yes, it sounds very realistic for someone with your skill set to build a locost.

2) Moving a tube or a joint an inch or two is usually fine. Moving it a foot or two might not be. When you run into something that causes you concern just ask here with pics and there are many members who would happily offer an opinion. As far as frame design and strength go, try to avoid cantilevers and pin joints whenever possible, and triangulation is almost always a good idea. Nature loves triangles. Strong like bull. [/Russian accent

3) You *might* be able to do it for $5000 total, but IMHO you should probably double that. I think the total real world budget is probably the biggest reason that a lot of projects don't get finished. The thousand and one little things it takes to complete a project really add up, and many people just run out of money or time or enthusiasm.

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PostPosted: July 3, 2019, 7:08 am 
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Joined: September 22, 2005, 8:12 am
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Location: 4AGE in S.E. Michigan
JB is spot on! The only thing I would add is the amount of time you think is needed to complete the build. Just add [A FACTOR OF 3]
Davew


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PostPosted: July 3, 2019, 11:17 am 
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Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
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Location: West Chicago,IL
Welcome!

$5k is achievable if you watch every penny, you are a scrounger and don't rebuild everything as you go. It also might help to ignore some purchases in your spreadsheet. And don't count the shipping or tax in your costs. Just Kidding (but not too much). My build was $5,377.15 tax and shipping included. . I'm sure I missed a few small things I bought along the way and not counting a few Xmas presents I received. That was ~10 years ago Edit: I just saw that I had not included the rotary engine rebuild kit for another ~1K. :mrgreen:

To help meet that target cost, I would suggest working with a single donor to minimize your costs. A running donor with good tires and brakes etc, goes a long way to keeping costs in check. One can always make improvements once you are on the road.

Speaking of on the road, before you start collecting parts, make sure there is a pathway in your state to title and registration. If not, you would not be the first to complete their build and then find there is no process available to register it for the road.

I'd also say that while the bigger HP engines you mention may sound like what you want. Don't discount a 140-150HP engine. It can still get a Locost 0-60 times well under 5 seconds and still corner like the dickens. Adding a turbo later in the game might also help minimize the initial cost.

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“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766


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PostPosted: July 3, 2019, 12:10 pm 
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Joined: February 8, 2007, 4:20 am
Posts: 336
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Hi David,

Welcome to the forum. As others have said, it sounds like you've got enough experience working on cars to tackle building a Locost. Regarding budget, I spent about $7500 Canadian to build mine, but that was more than 10 years ago. Although it is possible, I think that it would be tough to do it under $5000. In my opinion, sticking to a single donor will make it cheaper to build, provided that choose a donor that you can use as much from as possible (drivetrain, suspension, steering column, wiring harness, etc.)

You mentioned that you are considering doing a mid-engine build. If you haven't already come across it, you should take a look at the Midlana, which is essentially a mid-engine Locost. There is a very comprehensive book available on how to build it:

http://midlana.com/

Good luck!
Mark

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PostPosted: July 3, 2019, 1:44 pm 
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Thank you. JB, I started bookmarking everything actually just habit. Already kind of a long list.

Luckily I'm in CA where registering is fairly straightforward with sb100.


I found a really good donor yesterday but I'm thinking it will be sold by next week when I'm able to look at it. Good deals tend to go fast. But single donor is probably the cheapest and easiest. And if I want those power levels, I need to find a miata that's already turboed instead of doing the turbo setup myself.

This donor is a clean title 94 with all body panels in decent shape. Has a nb engine with 80k miles, has a flying miata turbo kit with megasquirt and all needed tuning including upgraded injectors and fuel pump. Roll cage, coilovers, upgraded clutch, etc. it's actually close to my entire budget when it comes to price but I only need the powertrain and uprights/brakes and after parting the rest out might come in near $2500-3000.


Is kinetic the only place to get body panels now? Every other site seems to be down.

I think I need to order the body panels and get the donor first before I build out a frame so that I can make slight adjustments with added height if my engine is too tall, etc.

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PostPosted: July 3, 2019, 3:53 pm 
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Joined: July 29, 2006, 9:10 pm
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Location: Oregon, usually
pancake wrote:
Is kinetic the only place to get body panels now?
In my dreams. But even Kinetic (which is me, as you probably know...but then again, you're a newbie so better too much info than too little) doesn't provide actual "panels" -- all the flat sheet metal parts (the side panels, bonnet/hood, rearcoverthingie) are yours to fabricate. Kinetic offers the body parts that are hard to make just one of; the fiberglass nose, scuttle and fenders.
pancake wrote:
I think I need to order the body panels and get the donor first before I build out a frame so that I can make slight adjustments with added height if my engine is too tall, etc.
If you're confident you're going to build a "book" (the original Ron Champion book) frame, then you can go ahead and order a TTL nose and scuttle, but it sounds like you're going bigger than that (even a Miata engine is better served by a bigger-than-book chassis) so you'll probably be happier going with a SuperScuttle and adding the 4" inserts to the nose order. And fenders can wait until you're almost finished.

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PostPosted: July 3, 2019, 3:59 pm 
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Joined: June 28, 2019, 7:54 pm
Posts: 114
JackMcCornack wrote:
pancake wrote:
Is kinetic the only place to get body panels now?
In my dreams. But even Kinetic (which is me, as you probably know...but then again, you're a newbie so better too much info than too little) doesn't provide actual "panels" -- all the flat sheet metal parts (the side panels, bonnet/hood, rearcoverthingie) are yours to fabricate. Kinetic offers the body parts that are hard to make just one of; the fiberglass nose, scuttle and fenders.
pancake wrote:
I think I need to order the body panels and get the donor first before I build out a frame so that I can make slight adjustments with added height if my engine is too tall, etc.
If you're confident you're going to build a "book" (the original Ron Champion book) frame, then you can go ahead and order a TTL nose and scuttle, but it sounds like you're going bigger than that (even a Miata engine is better served by a bigger-than-book chassis) so you'll probably be happier going with a SuperScuttle and adding the 4" inserts to the nose order. And fenders can wait until you're almost finished.


I think I would really want the smaller form factor so book is the size I'm going for. I'm still researching whether the Miata engine with a turbo or s2000 engine can fit in a book chassis. I don't mind cutting the top of the hood for clearance.

I plan to acquire donor first then body panels then build frame

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PostPosted: July 5, 2019, 4:06 pm 
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Joined: May 27, 2006, 9:46 pm
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
How big/tall are you? Even a "book" frame is pretty small, and the original L****s 7's were impossibly so, if you were over 5'7" and 150 lbs. I sat in one once, and literally had to have 3 friends lift me out of it. Seriously. The "book" frame is a bit larger, but not a lot. The majority of builders here have gone with some iteration of the "+4+4+4" through "+4+2+2" McSorely plans, which better fit most North American folks.

Another consideration is things like seats. The narrower "book" frame can make sourcing seats extremely challenging, as almost any domestically-sourced (i.e., non-racing) seats are far too wide to fit a book frame. Even my "+4+2+2" frame was a supreme challenge in that regard - Miata seats were several inches too wide, and had to be extensively modified to fit.

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PostPosted: July 5, 2019, 4:13 pm 
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Oh I hadn't considered the seats actually. I was thinking really light non-reclinable ones like a Kirkey with a cover. I'll have to look up available seats and look up dimensions. I'm also reading build threads even with a small miata, if you retain the torque arm for the driveshaft (PPF or something?) it takes up more room in the trans tunnel.

I'm 5'10" about 160-165lbs so more on the lanky side. I will want a passenger seat but I don't plan to drive with a passenger often so room for 2 being comfortable is not really a concern.

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PostPosted: July 5, 2019, 4:29 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
The primary fitment issue is usually the width of the base of the seats at the back of the passenger area. The trans tunnel tends to get wider there to accommodate the snout of the diff, U-joint yoke etc., so width for seats can become extremely limited at that point - which can be one of the widest parts of factory seats. I had to narrow my Miata seats to 13” there!

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http://zetec7.webs.com/


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PostPosted: July 5, 2019, 7:20 pm 
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I had 17-1/2 inches driver's seat width and 16-1/2" for the passenger side. I had 230#ish 6 fit tall passenger and driver in a book chassis. The biggest problem for him driving was that the steering wheel to legs distance was tight. A adjustable tilt wheel solved that problem while driving, and a quick release solved the in-out issue. I needed neither myself @ 190# & 5'8". Riding for him was a tight fit that was solved by adding (yes adding!) 1" foam inserts between the outside frame members. Kirky seats are tougher I/O IMO with the side support. And you lose a bit of available width. A traditional Seven bench seat back with 2 seat squabs would be the best for room. The choices are endless.

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“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE

And don't forget my Cushman Truckster resto Locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=17766


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PostPosted: July 5, 2019, 8:10 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
I'd forgotten to mention the leg room issue. The pedal assembly takes away around 10"-12" of leg room, so that has to be accounted for, too. In my case, I wear 36" inseam pants, so I need a LOT of leg room. Something to be considered...

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PostPosted: July 5, 2019, 8:17 pm 
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I am actually looking at the Caterham race seats as an option. Since caterham smaller than a book chassis it should fit no problem. But they're around 500 UK pounds each plus around 180 pounds for the liner plus freight.

But they come with sliders

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