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 Post subject: Newbie, some questions
PostPosted: June 29, 2019, 6:33 am 
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I kind of fell ass backwards into a Locost build. I was looking at a Factory Five 818 and then an exocet and found out about the Locost. Did a few hours of reading and stayed up all night pretty excited about the prospect of a new project.

My eyes are dried out from reading and watching videos. I figured I'd just ask the questions directly that I thought of today.

Questions:
1) I don't have any professional background building cars or doing automotive repair. But I've done all my own auto projects ranging from brakes, regular maintenance to swapping the entire subframe, engine, transmission, etc. out of an fbody, rebuilding it back and putting it back together. My welding skills are still beginner but somewhat OK. I bought an arc welder and made an offroad winch bumper that's fully custom as a project to learn to weld.

I don't however, know all that much about electrical, and suspension theory.

Is it realistic for me to think I can build a locost? I have most of the tools and space and would be doing it on my spare time. Just not sure about the expertise required..


2) I'm finding that many people are building according to plans online that show the dimensions using square tubing. There are a few sizes and variations to choose from but they're mostly very similar in look. If I wanted my locost to have some slight differences, such as moving the seats forward or moving the cross bar where the gauges go slightly up, etc. does that require engineering knowledge? I'm assuming whoever designed the plans engineered it pretty close to be safe, reliable and perform well. I don't want to mess with that as I feel it's way out of my skillset. So looking at the plans and building it as-is would be fine. But on the other hand, I'm tempted to shorten or length things so I can adjust things around. Particularly how far the seats are mounted back. I kind of like it more in the middle like the exocet design.


3) Budget.. Not gonna lie, the biggest appeal here is the biggest bang for buck. Using my skills to have fun creating a project that can outperform a lot of cars out there. I also have time on my hands. I don't need the best looking locost and I'm really not looking to build any major panels or do any kind of paint work either. I'm good with a frame that's spray painted Rustoleum enamel gloss black and touching it up every now and then. I'm also OK with buying used parts and scooping up deals as I work on this slowly. Finding a good donor on Copart that may end up costing less if I part it out.

I'm hoping to come in at $5000 TOTAL (not including labor or tools. I have most tools) including the donor. I have my eyes set on a F20C/F22C out of an S2000. I am reading this build right now: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14558&start=180

I saw paul's videos on youtube and I want something like that! Doing some really quick math in my head...
- Donor $4000 MINUS $1500 in parts = $2500 net
- Metal $500

I think the S2000 needs a rear setup like a subframe from another car or I was thinking a Ford 8.8 diff including the axles and everything out a sn95 mustang. Not sure on compatibility still doing research but the plan is to bide my time and find a good donor to minimize the amount of parts I need to buy or refurbish.

I've owned 4 s2000s and I know the car is extremely simple and reliable and hardly ever breaks.


Does this sound possible?

For an everyday joe with average welding skills, how long would you estimate it takes to fab and weld up a standard locost frame?


Pretty excited about it but dont want to put the cart before the horse

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PostPosted: June 29, 2019, 10:09 am 
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Pancake- What is your first name so we can stop calling you "Pancake"?

Your experience is fine for building a Locost. Sounds like you've been around cars for sometime. Building one will surely add some new experiences! Arc welding on thin wall tubing might get a little messy, but I'm sure could be done. You might think about either MIG or TIG welding. Might think about the local Community College for some welding classes. Nothing beats practice.

The Honda S2000 is a viable donor. I'm finishing one up now. Keep in mind the engine is rather tall and some chassis designs may be difficult to keep the engine under the hood and not too low for ground clearance. The S2000 rear differential can be used in your car. I did without resorting to using the subframe. You can modify any chassis design to accommodate your preferences within reason. That's why we've got so many variations. I started with the McSorley 442e sketches and modified as needed.

Your cost breakdown may be a bit of a challenge. You always end up spending more than what you thought.

Good luck and I'm sure you will find a lot of support and comments from everyone on this forum.

Also where are you located? There might be some of the builders in your area that you can visit for viewing their cars or face-to-face talk.

Roy

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Last edited by RoyzMG on July 2, 2019, 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: June 29, 2019, 2:36 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
First things first - I apologize in advance for this being a lengthy reply, but it comes as a result of about 15 years of choices, and over 40 years of planning.

Your skill set is already fine for building a Locost. It's certainly more than I started out with! Your strongest trait is the desire to actually do a build. Once you have that, the rest is "details".

In my opinion, you will need a MIG welder (preferably a "gas" model), although a budget unit will do just fine. Lots of folks have had great success with Harbor Freight brand cheap ones. I built almost all of my frame using my first 120V "El Cheapo" Italian MIG, and it came out absolutely great. I had NO experience MIG welding, so I practiced for awhile on some scrap until I was confident. Sure, I still had to grind out the odd weld I wasn't happy with along the way, but that made sure that, in the end, I was supremely confident in the ones that resulted.

One piece of advice I'd offer is to not necessarily limit yourself to one, specific "donor". Shop around for other ideas. I started with one specific drivetrain idea, then switched to another, and another, and finally abandoned the entire idea of using any single "donor car" for my build.

While this can be a little more expensive (surprisingly, though, not a LOT more expensive), it offers a wealth of advantages. First, you're not forced to try to adapt your build to your donor parts "because you already have it in stock". A Locost isn't "like" any donor car...ergo, limiting yourself to your "donor" car can mean making a large number of rather significant compromises.

I chose to use a McSorely frame, the plans modified by Jim himself for myself & my partner-in-crime (who's building the other of the pair of cars we're working on), which is kind of a +4+2+4 design. The reason we chose that is because we wanted something that appears to be true to the original Chapman look.

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, so I chose a Ford Zetec engine, using Weber 45DCOE carbs (EFI & computer are gone!), backed up (for simplicity of build's sake) with a Ford T-5 trans & Mustang II rear axle & front suspension uprights. It all looks very "right" & true to the original concept...but big enough that a North American can actually fit in it & drive it. The original 7's were TINY. Anyone over 5'7" and 150 lbs. need not apply. The changes we had made to our frame design allow me (at 6'2" & 190 lbs.) to fit comfortably (if snugly) into the car.

There are lots of "build diaries" here, which will aid you in making your most informed decision. Most likely, NONE of them will be exactly what you want, but there's such a wealth of truly expert experience here that you WILL find all the information you need to do a build you can be proud of.

That's one of the most rewarding things about building a Locost - it's not something you bought, or something you assembled, but something you actually built, with your own two hands, using your own ingenuity. The pride of that is something to be experienced! Mine's not even finished yet, yet when showing photos of what I've done so far simply astounds people, who simply can't believe it's possible for someone to build a car from scratch. Their wonder, and respect for the builder, is like nothing else.

I encourage you to carry on & build a Locost. It may be the one, most-defining physical accomplishment of your life, and a source of pride for the rest of your life.

:cheers:

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PostPosted: June 29, 2019, 2:49 pm 
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RoyzMG wrote:
Pancake- What is your first name so we can stop calling you "Pancake"?

Your experience is fine for building a Locost. Sounds like you've been around cars for sometime. Building one will surely add some new experiences! Arc welding on thin wall tubing might get a little messy, but I'm sure could be done. You might think about either MIG or TIG welding. Might think about the local Community College for some welding classes. Nothing beats practice.

The Honda S2000 is a viable donor. I'm finishing one up now. Keep in mind the engine is rather tall and some chassis designs may be difficult to keep the engine under the hood and not too low for ground clearance. The S2000 rear differential can be used in your car. I did without resorting to using the subframe. You can modify any chassis design to accommodate your preferences within reason. That's why we've got so many variations. I started with the McSorley 442e sketches and modified as needed.

Your cost breakdown may be a bit of a challenge. You always end up spending more than what you thought.

Good luck and I'm sure you will find a lot of support and comments from everyone on this forum.

Also where are you located? There might be some of the builders in your area that you can visit for viewing their cars or face-to-face talk.

Roy


Hi Roy, it's David

Thanks for the reply. So I see people are suggesting a MIG/TIG. Is it mainly because of the thin metal? The thinnest metal I've welded was 16 gauge sheet metal using 1/16" 6013 electrodes and it was surprisingly fine. But it does require breaking the flux off which can be annoying. But if a MIG/TIG is absolutely required, I wouldn't mind picking it up and learning TIG.

Awesome, do you have a build thread? I did notice the S2000 is a bit tall. In Paul's build, it comes out the top of the frame. I'm open to other engines though so if I find a right donor, I wouldn't be opposed to something else. but I've always loved the S2000 engine and it can make 200+rwhp right off the bat and revs up to 9k. Also sounds amazing.

I thought it would be easier to just transplant the subframe but I guess not. When you're modifying the frame, are you taking into consideration any kind of structural calculations or is it pretty much just visual?


I think I would spend more than my budget but it's a goal to try to stick to so I don't overdo it. How far along are you in your build?

I'm in Socal, would love to check any cars out if there are people in this area

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PostPosted: June 29, 2019, 2:57 pm 
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zetec7 wrote:
First things first - I apologize in advance for this being a lengthy reply, but it comes as a result of about 15 years of choices, and over 40 years of planning.

Your skill set is already fine for building a Locost. It's certainly more than I started out with! Your strongest trait is the desire to actually do a build. Once you have that, the rest is "details".

In my opinion, you will need a MIG welder (preferably a "gas" model), although a budget unit will do just fine. Lots of folks have had great success with Harbor Freight brand cheap ones. I built almost all of my frame using my first 120V "El Cheapo" Italian MIG, and it came out absolutely great. I had NO experience MIG welding, so I practiced for awhile on some scrap until I was confident. Sure, I still had to grind out the odd weld I wasn't happy with along the way, but that made sure that, in the end, I was supremely confident in the ones that resulted.

One piece of advice I'd offer is to not necessarily limit yourself to one, specific "donor". Shop around for other ideas. I started with one specific drivetrain idea, then switched to another, and another, and finally abandoned the entire idea of using any single "donor car" for my build.

While this can be a little more expensive (surprisingly, though, not a LOT more expensive), it offers a wealth of advantages. First, you're not forced to try to adapt your build to your donor parts "because you already have it in stock". A Locost isn't "like" any donor car...ergo, limiting yourself to your "donor" car can mean making a large number of rather significant compromises.

I chose to use a McSorely frame, the plans modified by Jim himself for myself & my partner-in-crime (who's building the other of the pair of cars we're working on), which is kind of a +4+2+4 design. The reason we chose that is because we wanted something that appears to be true to the original Chapman look.

I'm a bit of a traditionalist, so I chose a Ford Zetec engine, using Weber 45DCOE carbs (EFI & computer are gone!), backed up (for simplicity of build's sake) with a Ford T-5 trans & Mustang II rear axle & front suspension uprights. It all looks very "right" & true to the original concept...but big enough that a North American can actually fit in it & drive it. The original 7's were TINY. Anyone over 5'7" and 150 lbs. need not apply. The changes we had made to our frame design allow me (at 6'2" & 190 lbs.) to fit comfortably (if snugly) into the car.

There are lots of "build diaries" here, which will aid you in making your most informed decision. Most likely, NONE of them will be exactly what you want, but there's such a wealth of truly expert experience here that you WILL find all the information you need to do a build you can be proud of.

That's one of the most rewarding things about building a Locost - it's not something you bought, or something you assembled, but something you actually built, with your own two hands, using your own ingenuity. The pride of that is something to be experienced! Mine's not even finished yet, yet when showing photos of what I've done so far simply astounds people, who simply can't believe it's possible for someone to build a car from scratch. Their wonder, and respect for the builder, is like nothing else.

I encourage you to carry on & build a Locost. It may be the one, most-defining physical accomplishment of your life, and a source of pride for the rest of your life.

:cheers:


I welcome lengthy repliles, thanks! So I started on a harbor freight flux core "mig" (gasless) that starts at the $100 price mark. When it died, I bought the stick welder. Is the main reason for MIG/TIG for thin metal? I can actually go down to about 16 gauge with stick but anything smaller would be difficult. I found the harbor freight cheapie welder couldn't even do anything lower than 1/8" and had tons of splatter. But it gave me a lot of experience.


Definitely open to other donors. I love the S2000 engine but I'm not dead set on it. I love V8s the most and also am open to lighter engines that rev high like maybe another honda engine or a toyota 2zz in the Elise or MR2.

I actually assumed it would be easier to just transplant everything from 1 donor and not to mix-and-match. But if it's easier to mix then I have no problems with that. I need to keep reading build threads to get an idea of it but for example, if I use a S2000 engine/transmission/driveshaft and use a different differential, I don't really know how they connect? What if the driveshaft is too short or too long? Or not sure how to mate a driveshaft from 1 car to a differntial in another if they might have different looking joints, etc. But I'd have to read more on that.

I've owned so many cars I can't keep track. People know me as buying a car and then seeing me with another toy few months later. But the one thing I've kept the longest was the truck I custom built my offroad bumper on. Very proud of the work I did, and I have a sentimental attachment to it because of the work I put into it despite being a 1997 old truck. And because it costs so little, I don't justify selling it to finance another car or build.

By keeping my budget low and not chasing perfection like pristine show quality paint, it'll let me enjoy the build and not get tempted to sell it to finance another build in the future.

I'm actually thinking no body panels or very little. Mostly naked design to keep things clean and low cost and easy to work on

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PostPosted: June 29, 2019, 4:35 pm 
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Yeah like Roy and Mike say (you can tell who can type 80+ words a minute on this site, then there's me; I want pictures)
The only exception in my building technique is that I try to use the whole donor car(s).
Reading your first post, I believe you have a great skill set, so build on! :cheers:

BTW pancake (insert given name here), welcome to a great forum, nice to see another builder.

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PostPosted: June 30, 2019, 12:13 pm 
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Where are you located?

It just so happens I have the complete front and rear subframes off an S2000 I was looking to sell.

Most people don't use the front subframes but that doesn't mean you couldn't. Many have used a rear subframe because it's hidden underneath body work and makes things simpler.

I also have a transmission and well, almost a complete car I've been parting out.

Texas laws have been so restrictive on Locosts, Dune Buggies, kit cars and sand rails I've got a Stalker that has just been sitting unfinished because I can't drive it on the streets if I were to build it. We've been working on some new laws and while there's light at the end of the tunnel it is a small, weak light.

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PostPosted: June 30, 2019, 1:54 pm 
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carguy123 wrote:
Where are you located?

It just so happens I have the complete front and rear subframes off an S2000 I was looking to sell.

Most people don't use the front subframes but that doesn't mean you couldn't. Many have used a rear subframe because it's hidden underneath body work and makes things simpler.

I also have a transmission and well, almost a complete car I've been parting out.

Texas laws have been so restrictive on Locosts, Dune Buggies, kit cars and sand rails I've got a Stalker that has just been sitting unfinished because I can't drive it on the streets if I were to build it. We've been working on some new laws and while there's light at the end of the tunnel it is a small, weak light.


I'm in the southern California area. So unfortunately a bit away from Texas :(

I actually was reading last night and was wondering how it would look or work if I used the entire front subframe out of the s2000. It seems fairly light but probably might be visible and too wide?

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PostPosted: June 30, 2019, 2:10 pm 
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Hi David, again welcome to the Locost forum.

You could use an arc welding outfit. People have been using arc for many, many years. I think the preferred welding type today is MIG for it's ease of use. TIG is harder to master and takes more practice and experience. There are a number of posts on this forum about welding which you might find and read. I've got a TIG unit which usually comes as a combination TIG or ARC unit, I use the TIG for thinner metals (and aluminum) while I use the Arc for heavier steel projects.

As CarGuy said you can use the S2000 rear subframe but using the front might be a bit difficult.

Using one tranny and then another differential is not impossible. No matter what you use you're probably going to have to have a drive shaft company shorten the donor shaft or if using different ends they can modify to accommodate the different mates.

My build log is linked at the bottom. Where in SoCal are you located? The only reason I ask is because there are a lot of Locost builders down there.

Cheers,
Roy

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PostPosted: June 30, 2019, 2:32 pm 
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RoyzMG wrote:
Hi David, again welcome to the Locost forum.

You could use an arc welding outfit. People have been using arc for many, many years. I think the preferred welding type today is MIG for it's ease of use. TIG is harder to master and takes more practice and experience. There are a number of posts on this forum about welding which you might find and read. I've got a TIG unit which usually comes as a combination TIG or ARC unit, I use the TIG for thinner metals (and aluminum) while I use the Arc for heavier steel projects.

As CarGuy said you can use the S2000 rear subframe but using the front might be a bit difficult.

Using one tranny and then another differential is not impossible. No matter what you use you're probably going to have to have a drive shaft company shorten the donor shaft or if using different ends they can modify to accommodate the different mates.

My build log is linked at the bottom. Where in SoCal are you located? The only reason I ask is because there are a lot of Locost builders down there.

Cheers,
Roy


My arc welder is also a arc/tig combo but I've never tried the tig portion of it because I don't have a gas bottle. But shouldn't be too difficult to try it.

I'm in the LA/OC area usually driving back and forth in between.


Few thoughts I had reading builds yesterday:

1) Option #1 - I was thinking was using the front and rear s2000 subframe as well as the differential, driveshaft, etc. all from the S2000 not shortened. And then building the frame around that. Basically keeping the S2000 suspension components all in tact. It would deviate from the dimensions found in the PDF I've found online so rather than building the frame first, I would line up all the s2000 powertrain and subframes together and build a frame around it. The front would be much wider rather than pointy.

No idea how that would look or if I'm missing any other consideration but was just a thought.


2) Option #2 -
I was also reading a few mid-rear engine builds and man those also open a lot of options.

It seems like traditionally if I built a front engine/rear drive car, you have to juggle building out the front and rear together while making sure the shifter and seats line up as well as the the differential and also making sure the diff is at the right angle.

But in a mid-rear drive build, I was thinking I could TECHNICALLY just take the entire subframe from a FWD car with the engine and suspension components, use it as the rear of the locost build and just build the front out from there. I can build it as short or as long as I need and don't have to worry about the driveshaft or matching things up front-to-rear.

Usually in a front of a FWD car, the tierod goes to the steering shaft and it allows the wheel to turn/pivot. Rather than getting custom half shafts made to fit a completely different spindle or hub, I could use the entire front suspension in the rear and just replace the tierod would one that mounts into the subframe. I would just fabricate that part.

The S2000 rear tie rod is a good example of this. I'm not entirely sure if that would ruin the suspension geometry in anyway because I don't know too much about that, but from what I can see... the locost rear suspension (modified front subframe with front suspension out of donor car) would essentially be the same as a IRS such as the S2000 comprised of LCA, UCA, coilovers, fixed tie rod.


This would save me the hassle of having to make brand new subframes AND rear suspension if I went mid-rear and transplanted the entire front of the car to the rear and build out the frame from there.


Couple donors I had in mind for this mid-rear could be the 2000-2005 Celica GTS with the 2zz engine (FWD), the Chevy Cobalt SS which is supercharged and can get to 300rwhp quite easily, the Mazdaspeed 3 (2007 generation) which can also hit about 300 rwhp, any VQ from an infiniti.


I don't know how it a locost will handle if you were to take the donor suspension fully though. I mean is it going to have the handling characteristics of a Celica or a Cobalt? Or is the lightness and stiffness of a locost chassis going to result in a completely different car?

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PostPosted: June 30, 2019, 4:45 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
Welders-wise, the flux core MIG will work, but they (like stick welders) tend to be messy, with lots of spatter & cleanup required. TIG is the ultimate, IMHO, for nice welds, but it's an art form & tends to be very, very slow, particularly in an endeavor where a LOT of welds will be required, like in building a Locost. That's why I suggested a MIG, on gas.

I'm a fairly experienced amateur welder (started oxyacetylene gas welding about 35 years ago), and am...okay at it. With my Miller AutoSet MIG, however, my welds look like rather nice TIG welds.

In my case, I finally just plain wore out my cheap Italian gas MIG. Considering that welding had since become a constant process in my shop, I decided it was time to move up. I bought a 220V Miller with AutoSet, and a spoolgun (which I have not yet begun to master). I LOVE this machine!! You simply turn it on, dial the thickness of material you need to weld, and the machine takes care of the rest of the settings. So far, it's been flawless in operation, never dialing too much or too little gas flow, amps, or wire feed. That's hard to beat.

I'd love to do TIG, primarily for aluminum, but the cost of entry for the equipment constantly exceeds the reaches my budget can extend to.

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PostPosted: June 30, 2019, 10:41 pm 
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Makes perfect sense. I am open to picking up a mig. I guess I'm going to try out the stick welding. It's kind of annoying dealing with flux but it also is very easy to access places with stick, you can weld all sorts of sizes using different electrodes.

Still reading build logs ...

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PostPosted: July 1, 2019, 6:13 am 
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David, welcome to the forum! Give the MIG a try. You'll be very pleasantly surprised! Instead of using different electrodes, you just turn a dial for the different sizes!

I'm a California escapee. Born & raised on the West side of L.A., a couple of miles from Venice Beach. After 55-plus years, I pulled up stakes and moved to the Missouri Ozarks!

Good Luck with your project!!! :cheers:

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PostPosted: July 1, 2019, 6:43 am 
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Hi David- Welcome to the Monkey Palace! I can't really add much to the discussion of the skill set and tools (welders) one would need to build a Locost. I can, however, offer this encouragement: Iffen I can do it, anybody can. Just keep reading, studying, learnin' stuff and then start building. You can do it. Mostly takes determination. Go for it, Bro, you can do it!

:cheers:
JDK

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PostPosted: July 1, 2019, 10:10 am 
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Hi David,

I'm in Carlsbad. My partially completed build uses a '94 Mustang V6 donor. It's a one-off design, which used the Haynes Roadster (Gibbs design) as the architectural model. Dimensionally, it's the same in terms of exterior and interior, with the exception of the transmission tunnel.

You're welcome to come by and see it. There are several completed builds that I know of in the San Diego metro area. There's a completed Champion/Pinto build nearby in Vista and maybe you could see that at the same time. There's a Miata/Haynes build down in Chula Vista as well.

I know there are some completed builds in Orange County, but I don't know the builders. You might want to poke around in the completed builds forum and see what you can find.

Send me a PM if you want my address/phone.

Cheers,

Lonnie

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