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PostPosted: August 16, 2016, 10:05 pm 
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RichardSIA wrote:
I've had a lot of fun in hot-rod Corvairs.
Use Viton seals and a few other tricks.
The Corvair is much more reliable than the VW ever was. :shock:
Try to find a way to eliminate the original fan for a system that does not torture the belt so much.
Might even be able to run modern electric fan or fans?
If you have to keep the original fan system get the lightest fan you can and balance it.
Do not remove the lower tin unless you know exactly what mods you are doing and their effect on cooling.

Corvair to Weber 3V set-up's are fairly cheap and easy to find, but the Webers are crazy expensive.
There are 3V Weber type F.I. bodies available, not cheap, but NEW, and F.I.!


Thanks Richard,
I am indeed thinking about building a new shroud, two conventional modern electric fans, with failure warning devices as well as exhaust high temperature buzzers. That should do it.


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PostPosted: August 16, 2016, 10:17 pm 
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Replacing the stock belt drive fan with a couple of electric fans sounds like a good idea! You'll also want a big cylinder over-temperature warning light. And very close, leak-free shrouding, like a small aircraft, so that you don't lose your cooling airflow.

I'll watch this build with great interest.

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PostPosted: August 16, 2016, 11:34 pm 
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In thinking this over it seems you ought to be able to set up a gated duct system.
Electric fan for low speed and ducting for higher speeds.
With a thermal switch the fan might not be needed at higher speed so easier on the charging system and fan life.
Just a thought.

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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 12:00 am 
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I too spent many a happy hour in a turbo'd Corvair.

Now stop and think what that engine could be today if it had survived the cuts. Water cooled of course simply due to smog issues but developed it might have become an LS fighter.

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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 12:54 am 
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I once got to play around a bit with a Corvair experimental engine.
Light plastic fan, one-piece cylinders and heads like an aircraft engine.
Chevy engineers could perform marvels when not chained down by the bean counters.
Corvair was intended as an economy car, and NOTHING GM makes is EVER allowed to outperform the Plastic Pig! (Corvette).
Not that hard to get a Corvair to outperform the PP's of it's day, with the turbo option and some tuning.
Then there was the Judson supercharger..........
More modern iteration of this philosophy would be the lack of V8 power in the Fiero.
GM, where they abandon all products that have the bugs worked out.

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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 6:43 am 
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RichardSIA wrote:
In thinking this over it seems you ought to be able to set up a gated duct system.
Electric fan for low speed and ducting for higher speeds.
With a thermal switch the fan might not be needed at higher speed so easier on the charging system and fan life.
Just a thought.

Good points. I guess there will be several ways to skin this cat.
Another thought that came to my mind yesterday was: why not improve the GM design by using double pulleys and belts with a warning system if a belt gets chewed.
I agree with some of the comments on this list that the stock Corsair arrangement needs to be rethought. But again, nothing is ever perfect. On my first build I have a 1.9 L Jetta engine which I rebuilt. The thing depends on a notched belt for valve timing, and it needs an idle tension pulley with a small device to compensate for the belt overheating. And then there is the business of piston interference (you loose your belt and chances are that the pistons will kiss the valves). I think we have to remain philosophical with all this.


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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 6:47 am 
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RichardSIA wrote:
I once got to play around a bit with a Corvair experimental engine.
Light plastic fan, one-piece cylinders and heads like an aircraft engine.
Chevy engineers could perform marvels when not chained down by the bean counters.
Corvair was intended as an economy car, and NOTHING GM makes is EVER allowed to outperform the Plastic Pig! (Corvette).
Not that hard to get a Corvair to outperform the PP's of it's day, with the turbo option and some tuning.
Then there was the Judson supercharger..........
More modern iteration of this philosophy would be the lack of V8 power in the Fiero.
GM, where they abandon all products that have the bugs worked out.



And you forget who killed the electric car!!!!


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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 10:20 am 
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Hi Phil-
I don't know much about Corvairs... Or Porsches... However, I seem to recall a discussion in here somewhere about how Porsche used a huge oil capacity (like 10 or 12 quarts in a 911?) and a large oil cooler to keep the car cool in racing conditions. Seems to me that something like that would help the 'Vair as much as the 911 in the cooling department. FYI, IMHO, etc, etc.

I like the dual electric fan idea. Seems like that would work, with some proper ducting.

There was a guy named Don Yenko back in the 60's who build some killer Corvair race cars. Perhaps researching there would offer info on cooling and fans and such. Look up "Yenko Stingers."

My favorite Yenko story is that they had cooling/intake scoops (flaps) that had to be manually opened before startup and they put tennis balls in the carb stacks when shut down to keep stuff out of them. So, before starting you had to open the flaps and take the tennis balls out of the carbs. There was a sign on the dash that said, "Flaps up, Balls out"... And that's how they raced 'em. :twisted:

Good luck, keep us posted!
:cheers:
JDK

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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 10:26 am 
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It will be a lot of work, but if it turns you on, why not? To approach 200 HP is doable, but even 6 barrels of Weber goodness won't get you much unless you seriously rework the heads. On the intake that means milling off the integral log manifold to where you end up with three individual intake ports on each bank. At that point a custom intake can begin to breath, and the choke point becomes the exhaust, which is a much trickier proposition because it requires completely re-configuring-relocating the ports. Do that, port/polish, three-angle, custom intake, headers, fuel injection or good carbs, cam and ignition and you'll be getting close to what a stock pre-variable-cam Subbie H6 makes.

Believe it or not, that's not meant to scare you off. Just a reality check. Corvair HP figures were inflated. But if you don't have the resources for what I describe above, there are still many improvements that can be more easily done. As of a couple years ago, you could get a cheap retrofit electronic fuel injection/spark setup using mainly stock Chevy components for well south of 2 grand.If it were me, I'd do a mild build with good driveability and 160 genuine HP as my goal, and in a 1300 Lb. car, you'll still have a (very unique) rocket.

In the cooling department, cleaning up the fin gaps helps a lot.


Last edited by kreb on August 17, 2016, 11:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 11:21 am 
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GonzoRacer wrote:
Hi Phil-
I don't know much about Corvairs... Or Porsches... However, I seem to recall a discussion in here somewhere about how Porsche used a huge oil capacity (like 10 or 12 quarts in a 911?) and a large oil cooler to keep the car cool in racing conditions. Seems to me that something like that would help the 'Vair as much as the 911 in the cooling department. FYI, IMHO, etc, etc.

I like the dual electric fan idea. Seems like that would work, with some proper ducting.

There was a guy named Don Yenko back in the 60's who build some killer Corvair race cars. Perhaps researching there would offer info on cooling and fans and such. Look up "Yenko Stingers."

My favorite Yenko story is that they had cooling/intake scoops (flaps) that had to be manually opened before startup and they put tennis balls in the carb stacks when shut down to keep stuff out of them. So, before starting you had to open the flaps and take the tennis balls out of the carbs. There was a sign on the dash that said, "Flaps up, Balls out"... And that's how they raced 'em. :twisted:

Good luck, keep us posted!
:cheers:
JDK


Good points and interesting suggestions. A larger oil pan and an oil cooler. I am making notes.


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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 11:27 am 
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RE: electric fans. Nobody has done it successfully to my knowledge. To cool one of these babies requires a ton of airflow. But that's assuming that the motor is in back where ram air isn't a factor. I'd really like to see a thermostatically-controlled electric setup in combination with ram-air. I think that it'd work and be very cool while removing the unreliability, clutter and parasitic loss of a belt-drive.

I'm actually getting kind of excited about this one. Has anybody brought up the reverse-rotation issue?


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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 11:37 am 
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kreb wrote:
It will be a lot of work, but if it turns you on, why not? To approach 200 HP is doable, but even 6 barrels of Weber goodness won't get you much unless you seriously rework the heads. On the intake that means milling off the integral log manifold to where you end up with three individual intake ports on each bank. At that point a custom intake can begin to breath, and the choke point becomes the exhaust, which is a much trickier proposition because it requires completely re-configuring-relocating the ports. Do that, port/polish, three-angle, custom intake, headers, fuel injection or good carbs, cam and ignition and you'll be getting close to what a stock pre-variable-cam Subbie H6 makes.

Believe it or not, that's not meant to scare you off. Just a reality check. Corvair HP figures were inflated. But if you don't have the resources for what I describe above, there are still many improvements that can be more easily done. As of a couple years ago, you could get a cheap retrofit electronic fuel injection/spark setup using mainly stock Chevy components for well south of 2 grand.If it were me, I'd do a mild build with good driveability and 160 genuine HP as my goal, and in a 1300 Lb. car, you'll still have a (very unique) rocket.

In the cooling department, cleaning up the fin gaps helps a lot.


Thanks for the tips.
I own a turbocharger,
along with your points about porting etc, do you think it would help.
I am currently looking at the light aviation mods on this engine. Yes they have FI. The $$ may be a factor however... not to run carbs matters to pilots more than it does to me, ... they don't mind forking money to gain altitude.
In 1965 GM was boasting 140 hp with 4 carbs. I can do that. Then improve headers and other exhaust hardware. Even if I end up with 160 bhp , if I manage to keep the weigh of this car under 1500 lbs that will suit me. Again this is not going to be a racing machine. This time the originality of my build will be that it will be a coupé. :cheers:


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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 11:43 am 
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kreb wrote:
RE: electric fans. Nobody has done it successfully to my knowledge. To cool one of these babies requires a ton of airflow. But that's assuming that the motor is in back where ram air isn't a factor. I'd really like to see a thermostatically-controlled electric setup in combination with ram-air. I think that it'd work and be very cool while removing the unreliability, clutter and parasitic loss of a belt-drive.

I'm actually getting kind of excited about this one. Has anybody brought up the reverse-rotation issue?


Good points. My flat 6 will be in the front. A better situation than the corvair and other rear engine rigs. I could design the side walls to force air towards the cylinders. I think that if I incorporate all you guys' suggestions I will have no problems with this engine. Thanks. :cheers:


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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 11:46 am 
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Someone on this board has successfully built a front-engined aircooled VW Locost. If you haven't already I recommend you find and read his thread.

Reverse rotation?


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PostPosted: August 17, 2016, 12:45 pm 
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Here is a link to a thread about a front engine Corvair T-Bucket that won a lot of awards for engineering, set fastest time of day in Auto-X, and is in fact still around.
I saw this car for sale once at a swap in Milpitas CA, the ONLY T-Bucket I ever lusted after!
He used a Pontiac Tempest transaxle.
The builder is active on the HAMB, so you might be able to pick up some tips from him.

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/corvair-in-front-of-t-bucket.865348/

Webb search will turn up even more pics and articles as it's a very famous magazine cover car.

Ed Roth's "Road Agent" used an inverted Corvair trans.

The technical issues can be solved.

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