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PostPosted: August 11, 2008, 3:05 pm 
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Joined: July 20, 2007, 2:07 am
Posts: 28
Location: San Mateo, CA
I'm kicking around the idea of building a mid-engine similar to Kimini, La Bala, etc and been trying to track down a light motor. So that others don't have to do the same amount of research here's what I've been able to find.

Note I didn't actually weigh any of these so don't rely on the accuracy! If anyone has any other engine weights to add fire away!

Honda
D = 100lb short block + oil pan (110-130 hp)
B = 104lb short block only (160-190 hp)
H = 123lb short black only (160-215 hp)

H trans = 96lb
D trans = 90lb

Ford/Mazda (Duratec)
2.3L = 260lb w/manifolds, AC, starter, etc
215lb just the engine

Nissan
SR20DET = 490lb complete

Just engine
A12 87 kg
A14/A15 93 kg
CA18DE 113 kg
CA16 113 kg
L16 113 kg
L18 118 kg
CA18ET 118 kg
CA18DET 128 kg
L18SSS 133 kg
L20B 137 kg
SR20DE 139 kg
FJ20E 144 kg
SR20DET 149 kg
FJ20ET 166 kg

VW/Audi
260 hp S3 engine weight 335 pounds
3.2L VR6 = 373 (255hp)
3.6L VR6 FSI < 2.8L VR6
1.8T ~80lb < 2.8L VR6

BMW
X5 3.0L = 355lb

Toyota
2ZZ-GE = 115kg (as in the Elise)
2ZZ-GE Engine 64 pounds
C64 Transmission 13 pounds
Air Conditioning 22 pounds
Twin Oil coolers 29 pounds
Other modifications 26 pounds

Subaru
2.2L NA = 130kg
2.0L Turbo = 150kg
3.0L 6 cylinder = 169kg (2000-2003), 160kg (2003+)
3.2L 6 cylinder = 180kg

VW type IV (as in the Porsche 914)
2.0L = 130kg


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PostPosted: August 11, 2008, 6:21 pm 
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Joined: July 20, 2007, 2:07 am
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Location: San Mateo, CA
A couple of additional Nissan engines

RB25DET - 720lbs - sport compact car magazine Sept 2003 (complete swap for a 240sx)
VQ35 - 260lbs longblock, no intake manifold (weight on bathroom scale so probably lighter than reality)
VQ35 - 313lb longblock + intake manifolds (on a fairly accurate shipping scale)
VQ30 - 127lb shortblock
VQ30 - 315lb longblock


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PostPosted: August 11, 2008, 7:02 pm 
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Joined: July 16, 2008, 4:07 pm
Posts: 157
Location: Louisville, KY
Nice list!

The lightest engine on the list is the one I was already thinking of using. That clinches it for me.


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PostPosted: August 11, 2008, 8:13 pm 
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Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5941
Location: SoCal
(Entire here means engine, transaxle, and all accessaries needed for a Locost, meaning alternator only.)

Entire Honda H22A1 drivetrain, 460 lbs

Entire Honda K24A2 drivetrain, 405 lbs

Who drives shortblocks, anyway? :wink:

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Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


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PostPosted: August 11, 2008, 8:16 pm 
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Joined: January 24, 2008, 4:47 am
Posts: 58
Location: Daufuskie Island, SC
This has some weights and makes for a good read:

http://archive.grassrootsmotorsports.co ... =34472&p=1


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PostPosted: August 13, 2008, 7:10 am 
In my experience reliable figures are hard to find. The main problem is that various yardsticks are being used. Short blocks, long blocks, running engines, engines with transmission , drive shaft, live axle, or IRS, engines with transaxles, engines with turbos and intercoolers. And if this was not bad enough the power output is represented in various ways too. American yardstick, European yardstick, HP at the flywheel, HP at the wheels.
My general impression is that transaxles have the power/weight ratio edge and DOHCs offer better performance enhancement possibilities. But of course I could be wrong.

IMHO the only two classes of car engines which would stand out are Mazda rotary and highly tuned aircooled Porsche-VW engines. For anything else the norm for a complete drivetrain seems to be somewhere between 350- 500 lbs.

Philippe


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PostPosted: August 15, 2008, 12:45 am 
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Joined: September 5, 2006, 11:00 pm
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Location: Columbia SC
Volvo B18/B20 330lbs with flywheel & manifolds no starter or alt.
Volvo B230 320lbs same. weighed a Alfa 2l came to 225# no flywheel
with intake manifold.
weighed a b13 rotary and it was around 220lbs can't remember if the flywheel was attached or not.

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1988 Volvo 240 5 Speed ( For Sale)
2002 Toyota Tacoma
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PostPosted: August 18, 2008, 9:43 am 
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Joined: April 26, 2008, 6:06 pm
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Location: Under the weather. (Seattle)
People need to do more weight measurements like this...Unfortunately they're still not all of the same completeness for a truely direct comparison and you are not able see everything that is/isn't included on the engine. I believe the 4 banger without an engine note is a KA24DE.


Attachments:
VQ30DE 01.JPG
VQ30DE 01.JPG [ 98.05 KiB | Viewed 34625 times ]
M52 01.JPG
M52 01.JPG [ 106.17 KiB | Viewed 34629 times ]
LSX IB 01.JPG
LSX IB 01.JPG [ 75.41 KiB | Viewed 34729 times ]
LSX 01.JPG
LSX 01.JPG [ 63.89 KiB | Viewed 34717 times ]
KA24DE 01.JPG
KA24DE 01.JPG [ 94.78 KiB | Viewed 34603 times ]
EJ25 01.JPG
EJ25 01.JPG [ 98.86 KiB | Viewed 34596 times ]

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PostPosted: August 18, 2008, 10:51 am 
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Joined: December 17, 2007, 1:17 pm
Posts: 558
Here is an alternate weight on the KA24DE:

http://forums.nicoclub.com/zerothread/299880

Image

Image

371lbs


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PostPosted: August 18, 2008, 11:33 am 
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Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5941
Location: SoCal
When comparing drivetrains, the engine, tranny, axles, and diff all have to be included. There's a fair difference between:
1. Front engine = 300lbs, tranny = 100lbs, driveshaft = 20lbs, rear axle with diff = 100lbs, for a total of 520lbs.
and:
2. Transverse engine = 300lbs, transaxle = 100lbs, for a total of 400lbs for the same power.

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Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


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PostPosted: August 18, 2008, 12:18 pm 
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Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
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Location: Massachusetts
It is reasonable to compare weights of the components of a drive train. Particularly if you have settled on a seven-type Locost.

Saving 100-120 pounds is a worthwhile goal, but clearly there is a great deal more design work to create your car from scratch as opposed to doing a "book"design. If your goal is a seven-type car, a mid engine is probably a difficult route. Maybe in a few years it won't be. Not everyone needs to be a trailblazer.

On thread comment:

I like the old Ford crossflows. They are several inches smaller (4"?) than the other motors being discussed, which makes packaging and ground clearance much easier. I think they are around 225 lbs., but they have aluminum heads available now.

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SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


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PostPosted: August 18, 2008, 1:37 pm 
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Joined: April 26, 2008, 6:06 pm
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Location: Under the weather. (Seattle)
Yes, the crossflow is a rather compact engine. I don't remember where I got this, but it gives a good frame of reference. Although I believe the significantly larger (and more powerful) Duratec four cylinders weigh in a similar ball park to the X-Flow.


Attachments:
Ford vs Toyota 4cyl.jpg
Ford vs Toyota 4cyl.jpg [ 100.13 KiB | Viewed 34529 times ]

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PostPosted: August 18, 2008, 5:32 pm 
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Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5941
Location: SoCal
horizenjob wrote:
If your goal is a seven-type car, a mid engine is probably a difficult route. Maybe in a few years it won't be. Not everyone needs to be a trailblazer.

All I meant was that the weight of a car is the sum of all its components. For front-engine layouts only, for example, say you want to use the super-light Subaru to make a lightweight wonder, then throw it ahead of a heavyduty 120lb tranny and 150lb truck rear axle. It ends up being as heavy - or heavier - than using a heavier engine but lighter tranny and axle. I know it's obvious, but not so much when looking at the engines separately.

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Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Last edited by Anonymous on August 19, 2008, 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: August 19, 2008, 8:14 pm 
horizenjob wrote:
It is reasonable to compare weights of the components of a drive train. Particularly if you have settled on a seven-type Locost.

Saving 100-120 pounds is a worthwhile goal, but clearly there is a great deal more design work to create your car from scratch as opposed to doing a "book"design. If your goal is a seven-type car, a mid engine is probably a difficult route. Maybe in a few years it won't be. Not everyone needs to be a trailblazer.

This is all a good discussion and the figures and pictures provided above are tremendously useful. However, I tend to share KB58 's views that the goal (with any sports car) is a minimal weight or optimal weight to power ratio. This means that engime weight figures while usefull cannot be isolated from the other drive train components if one want to be consistent :D .

Philippe


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PostPosted: August 19, 2008, 9:47 pm 
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Pounds are pounds, and we agree more is not better. Philippe is probably on the metric system, but we will let that slide for the purposes of this discussion. :-)

I think comparing drivetrain weights probably removes the question of which pile to weigh the clutch and flywheel in, those parts seem to regularly be left out...

But if your discussing weights for a seven type car, seems like it's possible to separate parts that are on opposite ends of the car. For instance, in the search for an appropriate axle, it does not help to only have drivetrain weights. That would be frustrating. Or having someone tell you, "just drop in a FWD transverse setup".

Sure the total weight matters, but for a person building the drivetrain, instead of using a self-contained unit, knowing the weight of the pieces would help. I do think there is not enough attention to the weight of the rear axle.

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SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


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