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PostPosted: June 29, 2017, 1:46 pm 
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I personally have this one and it works great.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B000H961 ... y+chargers

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PostPosted: June 30, 2017, 9:58 am 
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mjalaly wrote:

rx7locost wrote:
Are you using an ignition lamp? Or a resistor in its place?


Neither. As far as i remember that wire is cut.


If you don't have this (charge system light) it will not charge, and it has to be an incandescent bulb not an LED.


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PostPosted: June 30, 2017, 10:01 am 
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Zac88GT wrote:

If you don't have this (charge system light) it will not charge, and it has to be an incandescent bulb not an LED.


What? I wouldn't be able to drive the car then correct?

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PostPosted: June 30, 2017, 11:27 am 
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A ~50 ohm resistor will work fine.

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PostPosted: June 30, 2017, 11:43 am 
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KB58 wrote:
A ~50 ohm resistor will work fine.


A resistor to what? Ground? I don't have the ELD so that wire would need to go somewhere.

So without this the car can run but it won't charge the battery? How does that work? The output from the alternator is wired directly to the starter which is directly wired to the battery (same post on the starter).

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PostPosted: June 30, 2017, 1:11 pm 
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Running the car and charging it's battery are two different things. My formula car does not have an alternator. It will run until the battery goes dead and then it needs to be charged again. At some point along that path it will still run, but wouldn't be able to start up again because the battery would no longer have enough power, it just has enough power to run the ignition coils. Why? Well batteries are imperfect real world devices, you cannot remove the last 10% or it's power at the same rate as the first 10% of it's charge.

The alternator has two sets of windings in it, the rotating part on the stator and a stationary part that generates the magnetic field. The voltage regulator determines how much current is applied to the field which determines the output of the alternator. A small current in the field will cause a large output from the alternator.

Your symptoms of a car that will start and run, but not restart indicate the battery works and can deliver a large amount of power to run the starter motor, but it is being depleted while running. This points to the alternator not producing a charging current, most likely because the field winding is not being energized by the voltage regulator. It's possible for alternator to fail in other ways too, for instance they contain diodes, internal wiring and brushes that could fail.

In order to charge the battery you must overcome it's natural voltage and force current thru it the opposite direction to run the chemical reactions backwards from the way they do when the battery is discharging. So to charge your battery you must run at least 13V or 14V, the higher the charging voltage the higher the current.

A simple multi-meter is your friend here. Measure the voltage on your battery terminals when the car is not running. Then measure it again when it is running at idle, then at something like 1500RPM or 2000 RPM. If the voltage is less than when the car is off, it indicates the battery is being discharged - it's voltage is a bit lower because of the load it is driving. If the voltage is higher than when the car is off that indicates your alternator is being asked to charge the battery from the work of starting the car and running it.

When you get to this point you can be certain you have a basic diagnosis. I hesitate for you to just be connecting things until you get this far.

Next to understand is your alternator connections, it should have 3? There are large connections for ground and power output. Power output is many Amps, something in the 40-100 range. There should also be a smaller connection for the field windings which would be driven by your ECU/ELD combination. Lets' go over that after you do the measurements mentioned above. This will all make sense to you if we go one step at a time....

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PostPosted: June 30, 2017, 2:13 pm 
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horizenjob wrote:
Running the car and charging it's battery are two different things. My formula car does not have an alternator. It will run until the battery goes dead and then it needs to be charged again. At some point along that path it will still run, but wouldn't be able to start up again because the battery would no longer have enough power, it just has enough power to run the ignition coils. Why? Well batteries are imperfect real world devices, you cannot remove the last 10% or it's power at the same rate as the first 10% of it's charge.

The alternator has two sets of windings in it, the rotating part on the stator and a stationary part that generates the magnetic field. The voltage regulator determines how much current is applied to the field which determines the output of the alternator. A small current in the field will cause a large output from the alternator.

Your symptoms of a car that will start and run, but not restart indicate the battery works and can deliver a large amount of power to run the starter motor, but it is being depleted while running. This points to the alternator not producing a charging current, most likely because the field winding is not being energized by the voltage regulator. It's possible for alternator to fail in other ways too, for instance they contain diodes, internal wiring and brushes that could fail.

In order to charge the battery you must overcome it's natural voltage and force current thru it the opposite direction to run the chemical reactions backwards from the way they do when the battery is discharging. So to charge your battery you must run at least 13V or 14V, the higher the charging voltage the higher the current.

A simple multi-meter is your friend here. Measure the voltage on your battery terminals when the car is not running. Then measure it again when it is running at idle, then at something like 1500RPM or 2000 RPM. If the voltage is less than when the car is off, it indicates the battery is being discharged - it's voltage is a bit lower because of the load it is driving. If the voltage is higher than when the car is off that indicates your alternator is being asked to charge the battery from the work of starting the car and running it.

When you get to this point you can be certain you have a basic diagnosis. I hesitate for you to just be connecting things until you get this far.

Next to understand is your alternator connections, it should have 3? There are large connections for ground and power output. Power output is many Amps, something in the 40-100 range. There should also be a smaller connection for the field windings which would be driven by your ECU/ELD combination. Lets' go over that after you do the measurements mentioned above. This will all make sense to you if we go one step at a time....


Marcus, I have just a small correction. I believe that you are mixing alternators with generators. In the alternator, the rotating part (rotor) is the one that makes the field and the stationary windings (stator) are in the case of the alt and provide the output. But besides that, you are correct in that the regulator controls the field and the field is used to control the output. Everything else I agree on. :cheers:

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PostPosted: June 30, 2017, 2:30 pm 
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Chuck, that makes sense. The brushes would only carry the field current and not the main output. Plus the word "stator" sounds more like stationary. Geez, I've had this backwards for decades! I've learned something new! There is still hope for me. :) The diagrams of alternators look sort of the other way but it's just the way they need to be drawn... :rofl:

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PostPosted: June 30, 2017, 3:28 pm 
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No fault, no foul. As opposed to Alternators, Generators, universal motors, and even many AC motors, the "field" windings are "stationary". Easy to make a mistake.

I had a devil of a time in school when they reversed current flow on us. In vacuum tubes the current ran "conventional current flow". When they switched to the class on transistor theory, current ran the other direction "electron flow". Or was it the other way around? :ack:

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PostPosted: July 1, 2017, 1:48 am 
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mjalaly wrote:
KB58 wrote:
A ~50 ohm resistor will work fine.


A resistor to what? Ground? I don't have the ELD so that wire would need to go somewhere.

So without this the car can run but it won't charge the battery? How does that work? The output from the alternator is wired directly to the starter which is directly wired to the battery (same post on the starter).


You need either a resisitor or a bulb inbetween an ignition +12v and the "L" terminal on the alternator for it to charge the battery. Without this the engine will run but your alternator will not charge the battery back up and eventually the battery will drain.


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PostPosted: July 1, 2017, 3:08 pm 
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So I measured the voltage at the alternator and battery at idle and got over 14v at both. At 2k-5k rpm I have 14.3v.
Attachment:
2017-07-01 12.55.47.jpg
Attachment:
2017-07-01 12.56.43.jpg





This spuprised me so I did a test where I turned the car on, let it run and turned it off. I did this several times until it wouldn't start and just clicked. It's the igniton switch! It has some loose contacts in. If I mess wit it, the car will start right up. That needs replaced for sure.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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PostPosted: July 1, 2017, 6:04 pm 
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Well that's good news.

We wouldn't have gone so far astray except you originally said "Yeah i don't think it has ever run 13+ volts" Now we know your alt is working just fine and there are no wiring issue exists. Good on ya mate! :cheers:

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PostPosted: July 1, 2017, 6:24 pm 
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Yeah.... dumb. No I just have to find that drain...

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PostPosted: July 1, 2017, 7:43 pm 
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On the plus side (no pun intended :oops: ) there has been a lot of great alternator diagnostic and hook-up info posted on this thread. I'm going to save a copy for when I wire up my alternator. :thmbsup:

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PostPosted: July 1, 2017, 9:10 pm 
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Ugh... I took her out for a bit of a drive and when I stalled it, I couldn't get her started again. New battery is need I guess.

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