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Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
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PostPosted: May 18, 2017, 5:07 pm 
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Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
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Location: SoCal
Locost builder "Junior" has the Racelogic box and really liked it as I recall. I agree with the others though, it's probably best to see ways to work around the issue entirely.

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PostPosted: May 19, 2017, 1:12 am 
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Joined: June 8, 2010, 8:02 pm
Posts: 436
Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
Pretty sure the majority of current ESC systems are purely reactive. Meaning the vehicle is only reading where you want to go (steering angle sensor), where the car is pointed (Yaw), and how fast it is going there (lateral accell sensor, WSS). I'd bet if you got one that was reactive only, it would operate just as well on a 1500lb car (once the brake sizes were balanced). The bigger potential headache would be ensure that your car didn't cause any non-ESC DTCs that will cause the ETC to disable.

If you want a proactive ESC you'd best learn how to program and build Arduino boards or similar and have a lot of time for R&D.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: May 19, 2017, 5:53 am 
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Joined: June 5, 2016, 7:03 am
Posts: 72
Location: ontario
C10CoryM wrote:
Pretty sure the majority of current ESC systems are purely reactive. Meaning the vehicle is only reading where you want to go (steering angle sensor), where the car is pointed (Yaw), and how fast it is going there (lateral accell sensor, WSS). I'd bet if you got one that was reactive only, it would operate just as well on a 1500lb car (once the brake sizes were balanced). The bigger potential headache would be ensure that your car didn't cause any non-ESC DTCs that will cause the ETC to disable.

If you want a proactive ESC you'd best learn how to program and build Arduino boards or similar and have a lot of time for R&D.

Cheers.


Hi Cory,
You seem to know a good deal more about ESC than I do. I am not clear what you mean by reactive vs proactive. So far what I had understood was that all systems are reactive. ABS, TC, steering angle -Yaw. Sensors detect a differential between the car heading and its actual position. ESC corrects the situation by applying selected brakes on one side (which a driver cannot do) and reducing throttle. Can you educate me. :)


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PostPosted: May 21, 2017, 1:03 am 
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Joined: November 11, 2013, 4:47 am
Posts: 491
Location: No. Nevada
:ack: Sorry I clicked this one!
Isn't the whole point of 7 type vehicles that the DRIVER is to be in FULL control, not some Gov. edict device?
Any Gov. stooge even contemplating the sort of mandates under discussion should be immediately recalled, then tarred and feathered before being run out of town on a rail! :evil:
Sometimes the only proper response is an old-fashioned one.

For the expense involved in the relevant hardware and software you could probably just buy-off a couple of politicians (Campaign donations :wink: ) and prevent passage of such nanny-state feculence.

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PostPosted: May 21, 2017, 1:14 am 
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Joined: August 27, 2005, 1:04 am
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Location: Kamloops, BC, Canada
RichardSIA wrote:
:ack: Sorry I clicked this one!
Isn't the whole point of 7 type vehicles that the DRIVER is to be in FULL control, not some Gov. edict device?
Any Gov. stooge even contemplating the sort of mandates under discussion should be immediately recalled, then tarred and feathered before being run out of town on a rail! :evil:
Sometimes the only proper response is an old-fashioned one.

For the expense involved in the relevant hardware and software you could probably just buy-off a couple of politicians (Campaign donations :wink: ) and prevent passage of such nanny-state feculence.

I like the way you think.
Kristian

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PostPosted: May 21, 2017, 8:55 pm 
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Joined: June 8, 2010, 8:02 pm
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Location: White Rock, BC, Canada
phil wrote:
Hi Cory,
You seem to know a good deal more about ESC than I do. I am not clear what you mean by reactive vs proactive. So far what I had understood was that all systems are reactive. ABS, TC, steering angle -Yaw. Sensors detect a differential between the car heading and its actual position. ESC corrects the situation by applying selected brakes on one side (which a driver cannot do) and reducing throttle. Can you educate me. :)


Not that familiar with the programming of ESC as companies keep all their programming pretty secretive. All I mean by reactive is that most systems (from what little information I can get) just react to the sensors to apply the brakes etc, then only release/reduce the brakes as the sensors show the lateral speed dropping. They don't see X amount of lateral acceleration, then calculate that it will take Y amount of braking to correct it due to the mass and speed of the car. There are definitely some that seem to do this, or they may be simply sampling/reacting at speeds ridiculously higher than other cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SywqgH7 ... u.be&t=43s

I would be very curious to see how their ESC works (besides very well).

All this being said, as much as I appreciate the technology of the ESC, T/C, and ABS....... I still prefer to drive/race without it.

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PostPosted: May 22, 2017, 10:32 am 
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Joined: June 5, 2016, 7:03 am
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Location: ontario
C10CoryM wrote:
phil wrote:
Hi Cory,
You seem to know a good deal more about ESC than I do. I am not clear what you mean by reactive vs proactive. So far what I had understood was that all systems are reactive. ABS, TC, steering angle -Yaw. Sensors detect a differential between the car heading and its actual position. ESC corrects the situation by applying selected brakes on one side (which a driver cannot do) and reducing throttle. Can you educate me. :)


Not that familiar with the programming of ESC as companies keep all their programming pretty secretive. All I mean by reactive is that most systems (from what little information I can get) just react to the sensors to apply the brakes etc, then only release/reduce the brakes as the sensors show the lateral speed dropping. They don't see X amount of lateral acceleration, then calculate that it will take Y amount of braking to correct it due to the mass and speed of the car. There are definitely some that seem to do this, or they may be simply sampling/reacting at speeds ridiculously higher than other cars.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SywqgH7 ... u.be&t=43s

I would be very curious to see how their ESC works (besides very well).


Thanks again for your thoughts. You are right. I believe that the long account I read about a locost builder plugging this technology on his build had to do with traction control and maybe ABS both being essentially reactive. My understanding of all this is that 21 st century ESC involves steering position sensors and yaw motion sensors and the data are managed by a central program. The end resulting output however is still delivered the old fashion way: individual wheel brakes and torque control (throttle or ignition) .

I too believe that this level of technology is overkill for I kind of machines and that it would also make them more vulnerable to failure.

I do hope that this thread will not worry our Canadian colleagues too much. Chances are that model kits will never be concerned by changing ESC federal /provincial regulations. On the Piston Head forum someone pointed that the whole subject discussion ignored the fact that the Feds are aiming at "manufactured cars" we...are not manufactured car builders but hobby individual builders. This distinction has always been made by law makers. :cheers:


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