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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 5:50 am 
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Location: ontario
I am at ground zero of exploring ESC as a subject and its potential application in a homebuilt seven.
In case you would wonder why, I have to say that IMO ESC is overkill on a locost seven but..... this may not be the opinion of the Ontario MOT two years down the road when I will apply for registration of my current build.
In our hobby we have no choice but to think ahead. There is still a chance that Model Kits, antique vehicles, modified etc may be exempted from mandatory ESC as was the case with respect to Drive Clean emission control requirements a while ago. But I don't want to second guess legislators in this Canadian province and take a chance.

My question is this: is there anyone in this group who has retrofitted ESC (or ESM) in a small sportscar not stock equipped with a computer. What do you know of the subject. Do you know of someone who has written about how to approach it. I myself found one case on the Web of a Hot Rod part builder who has retrofitted a 1969 GM car using a donor's set of electronics. Ideally I would like to find a source of aftermarket parts designed and built for a small rear engine vehicle. I guess that even a set made for a small pickup truck may work. I will welcome your advice. :)


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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 7:43 am 
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I think you could mechanically fit all the components from an existing vehicle. But I don't think you could actually make it work properly. The programming in the specific ESC would be programs to match the original vehicle, it's weight, pitch and yaw characteristics. So you may get it installed and maybe that's enough, to get it to work correctly might be impossible. But your going to need all the stock parts, probably electric power steering, fly by wire throttle, all the sensors and wiring, I huge project. How are they planning on testing the ESC, that might be the secret to your success?

Graham


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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 10:30 am 
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FastG wrote:
I think you could mechanically fit all the components from an existing vehicle. But I don't think you could actually make it work properly. The programming in the specific ESC would be programs to match the original vehicle, it's weight, pitch and yaw characteristics. So you may get it installed and maybe that's enough, to get it to work correctly might be impossible. But your going to need all the stock parts, probably electric power steering, fly by wire throttle, all the sensors and wiring, I huge project. How are they planning on testing the ESC, that might be the secret to your success?

Graham


Thanks Graham for four pointers. I am aware of the complexity of the project. So far all I understand is: a sort of ABS,+traction control based on wheel speed differentials, wheel sensors on 4 wheels, yaw sensor, steering position sensor. A power assisted system (electric of vacuum), a special type of brake master cylinder. I believe that finding a donor as close as possible to the seven (weight/power)will not be easy. Perhaps in Europe. I am not clear as to whether ESC can be an independent computer or whether it has to be part of the ECU.

On Ontario MOT implementation, at this point I have no details. The ruling was made as I said for all new vehicles, meaning mostly production products. It is quite possible that testing any individual vehicle will be too involved and that the Ministry will take the bill of sale of an aftermarket fabricator on face value. That may be good news for guys like me. On calibrating the system, I do hope that the market will eventually offer software that we will be able to set to work with specific non production cars.


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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 10:30 am 
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With Locost CoG, brakes and handling, ESC should be the least of concerns! But common sense isn't the forte' of government.


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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 2:27 pm 
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In short, I think you're probably screwed unless you implement the donor's system. No way any governmental office will accept an aftermarket unit as an equivalent substitution without much study. I'm not saying it won't work, just that it won't be approved. An equivalent issue might be using an aftermarket fuel tank in an emissions state - they won't approve it because it wasn't tested. I realize ESC isn't emissions related but you're assuming worst-case that it's required, so that's my take on it.

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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 4:04 pm 
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KB58 wrote:
In short, I think you're probably screwed unless you implement the donor's system. No way any governmental office will accept an aftermarket unit as an equivalent substitution without much study. I'm not saying it won't work, just that it won't be approved. An equivalent issue might be using an aftermarket fuel tank in an emissions state - they won't approve it because it wasn't tested. I realize ESC isn't emissions related but you're assuming worst-case that it's required, so that's my take on it.


Thanks, you are probably right. So far I have only read about a guy who plugged a donor system (not aftermarket kit). I am at the beginning of my search however. With some luck technology will evolve as it did around EFI etc. My plan A is to find a firm that would build a system for my car (yes wish me luck, and no I don't have deep pockets). Plan B on the other hand is to look for the donor car closest to my seven (not obvious)... salvage the ESC (or ECU with the ESC), bolt it to my build and hope that it will satisfy MOT. It is difficult to predict how transport authorities will look at all this. There are also significant differences from country to country. US states are more laid back than the UK for instance. In Canada it all varies tremendously from province to province. . My guess is that in Ontario Transport bureaucrats might trust private engineering firms that would sell generic aftermarket units provided that they are installed and calibrated by certified technicians. Again, just a guess. :cheers:


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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 5:15 pm 
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Phil,
I applaud your positive attitude. :cheers:
However, I would venture to guess that if an ESC will be a requirement, then that's just the tip of the iceberg. Airbags, certified bumpers and a slew of current safety items will surely be part of the requirements as well.
Rather than researching all this, I would look at alternate ways to get around all this. Are there grandfather rules? Can you modify an existing (inspected with a VIN) hot rod to meet your requirements? Did you sell your car? If not, it may be cheaper to keep it, and build around it. If I were to consider another build, that would be my choice. I wouldn't bother with another inspection; Cobra? No, Sir, I just changed the paint scheme of my Seven. :rofl:

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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 6:04 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
Honestly, I doubt that it's possible without having millions of dollars to spend. The degree of engineering to tailor a specific system for one, single vehicle would be huge, and breathtakingly expensive.

Just a thought - if you were to, say, move your ready-to-register vehicle to, say, a friend's place in Quebec or Manitoba, and register it there, might it not be easier then to simply bring it into Ontario as a road-legal vehicle with an existing registration?

I understand that it's generally easier in most provinces to bring in such a vehicle than it is to register one from scratch.

Thinking outside the box, here...

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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 6:54 pm 
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I would guess that the only realistic way of potentially accomplishing this would be hoping the law has to be written open enough to allow a variety of system functionalities styles to fall within it, and then finding loopholes in the verbiage of the law. The first thing that jumps to my mind is that implementing some form of 'traction control' could be feasible, and there might be some rudimentary means available to get that to fall within the letter of the law as stability control.

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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 7:17 pm 
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mgkluft wrote:
Phil,
I applaud your positive attitude. :cheers:
However, I would venture to guess that if an ESC will be a requirement, then that's just the tip of the iceberg. Airbags, certified bumpers and a slew of current safety items will surely be part of the requirements as well.
Rather than researching all this, I would look at alternate ways to get around all this. Are there grandfather rules? Can you modify an existing (inspected with a VIN) hot rod to meet your requirements? Did you sell your car? If not, it may be cheaper to keep it, and build around it. If I were to consider another build, that would be my choice. I wouldn't bother with another inspection; Cobra? No, Sir, I just changed the paint scheme of my Seven. :rofl:


Yes here the SVAO is actively looking for ways to do what you suggest and I support them. As pointed in my opening statement I do not wish our hobby cars to be subjected to the same rules as production cars In the past Model Kits were exempt from the Ontario Drive Clean program. Let us hope that this time again law makers will make exceptions. We collectively can wield some political weight. We will soon know.
My attitude is: should it all fails, I do not want to have to can a project in which I have invested so much I will adapt...reluctantly.


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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 7:26 pm 
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Driven5 wrote:
I would guess that the only realistic way of potentially accomplishing this would be hoping the law has to be written open enough to allow a variety of system functionalities styles to fall within it, and then finding loopholes in the verbiage of the law. The first thing that jumps to my mind is that implementing some form of 'traction control' could be feasible, and there might be some rudimentary means available to get that to fall within the letter of the law as stability control.


In theory IMHO ESC is primarily traction control (wheel speed monitoring and throttle restriction); ABS also wheel speed monitoring, and some clever master cylinder/power brakes. A steering position sensor, a yaw motion detector... and a computer that can coordinate all the numbers. I know the last part is the hard part but it does not mean that it can't be done. :)


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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 7:32 pm 
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zetec7 wrote:
Honestly, I doubt that it's possible without having millions of dollars to spend. The degree of engineering to tailor a specific system for one, single vehicle would be huge, and breathtakingly expensive.

Just a thought - if you were to, say, move your ready-to-register vehicle to, say, a friend's place in Quebec or Manitoba, and register it there, might it not be easier then to simply bring it into Ontario as a road-legal vehicle with an existing registration?

I understand that it's generally easier in most provinces to bring in such a vehicle than it is to register one from scratch.

Thinking outside the box, here...


Thanks for your thoughts.
I have at this point no ways to know what the $$ range would be to build a customized ESC. I doubt that it would be millions (but could be wrong). This is the kind of money manufacturers spend on development...their stakes are different from ours... humble hobby builders.


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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 8:46 pm 
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Phil,

RaceLogic used to have an add-on traction control unit ( http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en ... on-control ) now sadly discontinued. Not stability control per se, but pretty close. Wonder who else might make one?

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PostPosted: May 17, 2017, 11:55 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
If the Ontario government is requiring ESC, they're no doubt also requiring engineered crumple zones, engineered air bag systems, ABS, etc. That's what I was referring to as costing so much. I'm certain they would require qualified structural engineering firms for designing the physical systems involved, electrical engineers for the electrical systems design, etc. I doubt they'd accept the skills of a home builder in putting these systems together, even if taken from an acceptable donor - the integration of the various systems is at least as important as the components themselves.

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PostPosted: May 18, 2017, 6:26 am 
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Warren Nethercote wrote:
Phil,

RaceLogic used to have an add-on traction control unit ( http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en ... on-control ) now sadly discontinued. Not stability control per se, but pretty close. Wonder who else might make one?

Thanks Warren,
In the coming years someone is bound to notice that hobby car building is a potential market for ABS , Traction control and then eventually software that will integrate these to sensors (i.e steering position, yaw and lateral motion). Large European firms like Friedrichhaffen advertize their custom design and fabrication services. I have written to them but I don't hold much hope for an answer. What I plan to do is to keep looking, :)


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