LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently June 26, 2019, 10:01 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 138 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 16, 2015, 9:46 pm 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7624
Location: Massachusetts
I'm working on building an ECU with a fellow from the Speedtalk forum. It's a project he's been working on for awhile and then it stalled. He sent me a board and I'm trying to fix up the code while also drawing schematics for the board I would like to build and sell. The project is starting with an evaluation board from Freescale for an MPC 5634 processor. These boards are $99 and seem to be capable of doing the required work with a little help from another board with jumper cables.

We have Tuner Studio running with this board now and I hope to get it to run an engine very soon. I was originally going carb on my motor so it's going to take a little while to convert it to injection. I have some ideas on how and where to proceed but I would very much like to hear the opinions here.

So opinions on what parts and how to setup my Ford 302 for injection and what would you find useful in an ECU for your own builds. This is still a clean slate. It's not realistic to support everything, so rather I would like to find a subset that will make a quality ECU installation. I see aftermarket stuff going for $2000 and up and it seems very steep. The electronics are not expensive anymore but it seems the prices have not come down to match.

Here's a picture of the current board.. It is mostly covered with jumpers, switches and lights, the actual unit could maybe be smaller.


Attachments:
ECU1.jpg
ECU1.jpg [ 226.61 KiB | Viewed 3956 times ]

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 1:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2008, 6:06 pm
Posts: 3004
Location: Under the weather. (Seattle)
This may be of interest to you, or may be of some benefit to your endeavor, if you haven't seen it already: http://freeems.org/

For your SBF, I'd like to see 8 motorcycle throttle bodies sticking straight up out of the hood. :mrgreen:

_________________
-Justin

Also follow my build on blogspot, tumblr, or instagram and twitter (GarageOdyssey)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 9:54 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 24, 2008, 2:13 pm
Posts: 3893
Location: Carlsbad, California, USA
Marcus,

When do you sleep? Man, you've got so many projects going on!

I do not have expertise with ECUs, either aftermarket parts (Megasquirt, etc.) or donor stuff. I do have a keen interest in what's available and suitable for a Locost. I have the donor ECU and my plan is to have it installed for Phase I of my build. At the same time, I know it is concerned with many sensors and variables that will not be relevant to my Locost since they won't be there.

I don't think the size of that board is an issue. I just measured my EEC-V package from my donor Mustang and it is just about 9"x7" if you include the mounting tabs and big plug where the wiring connects. Does the board you show have storage space for storing you programs or is that held in some external device or extension to the board?

Cheers,

_________________
Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 11:49 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2008, 6:06 pm
Posts: 3004
Location: Under the weather. (Seattle)
Here is another potential source for additional ideas/information: http://rusefi.com/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

_________________
-Justin

Also follow my build on blogspot, tumblr, or instagram and twitter (GarageOdyssey)


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 1:13 pm 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7624
Location: Massachusetts
This is the project that I'm working on. It's been languishing recently, but it had some relationship with the "rusefi" project - bit I don't know the details.

https://code.google.com/p/open5xxxecu/

This project is a good fit for me because in my day jobs over the last 15 years I have worked with the folks that make and sell these chips. This is state of the art engine management hardware, capable of very reliable and very safe operation. It seems nearly able to run an engine now, but like a locost roller, it needs more work to be ready for prime time.

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 1:15 pm 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 5952
Location: SoCal
Given that the board isn't (probably) intended for automotive applications, I'd start by adding voltage clamps on just about every line, especially the supply wire. The "12V" from the alternator can spike way higher than that, especially when inductive loads turn off. A 16V Zener downstream of the fuse and across the input would help protect it. For all the analog inputs you might need the same, depending what's being fed to it.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://www.midlana.com/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 3:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: August 19, 2014, 5:17 pm
Posts: 685
Location: England
horizenjob wrote:
I'm working on building an ECU with a fellow from the Speedtalk forum. It's a project he's been working on for awhile and then it stalled. He sent me a board and I'm trying to fix up the code while also drawing schematics for the board I would like to build and sell. The project is starting with an evaluation board from Freescale for an MPC 5634 processor. These boards are $99 and seem to be capable of doing the required work with a little help from another board with jumper cables.

We have Tuner Studio running with this board now and I hope to get it to run an engine very soon. I was originally going carb on my motor so it's going to take a little while to convert it to injection. I have some ideas on how and where to proceed but I would very much like to hear the opinions here.

So opinions on what parts and how to setup my Ford 302 for injection and what would you find useful in an ECU for your own builds. This is still a clean slate. It's not realistic to support everything, so rather I would like to find a subset that will make a quality ECU installation. I see aftermarket stuff going for $2000 and up and it seems very steep. The electronics are not expensive anymore but it seems the prices have not come down to match.

Here's a picture of the current board.. It is mostly covered with jumpers, switches and lights, the actual unit could maybe be smaller.



Interesting stuff, I have used the Emerald cams ECU on a 302 http://www.emeraldm3d.com/ . The guys there are really helpful and will tailor make one for you for around £500. The last one I bought was to make a 302 sequential injection and wasted spark ( junked the dizzy) . Hardware is about like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ford-SB-260-289 ... 35&vxp=mtr which is about as cheap as you can get, I did better by buying a new old stock mechanical TJ system and drilling the bosses to accept electronic injectors .

Image

Bob

_________________
Build Log viewtopic.php?f=35&t=16640&p=187700#p187700

Mancave http://s1116.photobucket.com/user/mypic ... ow/mancave


Last edited by bob on March 17, 2015, 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 3:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: September 5, 2006, 11:00 pm
Posts: 769
Location: Columbia SC
Easier to just build a Megasquirt? I did one for $270 all tolled. Lot less work and headaches. I do a lot of electronic control systems design too. I'm not into reinventing the wheel, but it is cool do do the whole thing.

_________________
Volvo 240/P1800 Based Locost
2004 Aprilia Mille Factory
1988 Volvo 240 5 Speed ( For Sale)
2002 Toyota Tacoma
1999 BMW M3


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 5:00 pm 
Online
User avatar

Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
Posts: 5027
Location: West Chicago,IL
My hat is off to you for starting another low cost EFI controller. Do I understand correctly that it is currently using the various Megasquirt add-ons? If so, what are the expected benefits over the Megasquirt? Base MS systems are pretty cheap and very configurable. If you are versed in the electronics side of it, you will agree that the tricks to master are in the I/O signal conditioning and drivers. The automobile is a very harsh environment. Protecting the electronic devices is much more intense than a consumer device. And designing for fault tolerance of various failed external devices are a must.

Who knows if this will take off and surplant the MS family of ECU's? I'll be watching.......

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 6:34 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: October 19, 2012, 9:25 pm
Posts: 2835
Location: Summerville, SC
That's interesting. I'd like to blow away the SU on the Mini and replace it with a pair of snowmobile / jet ski throttle bodies and convert the ignition to wasted spark.

_________________
Too much week, not enough weekend.

OOPS I did it again
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=17496

Blood Sweat and Beers
http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=15216


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 17, 2015, 8:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 17, 2015, 8:10 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Jersey City, NJ
horizenjob wrote:
it had some relationship with the "rusefi" project

open5xxxecu was the source of TunerStudio protocol documentation for rusEfi, which was a huge help - that protocol is unfortunately not documented anywhere.

between the three open source EFI projects I am aware of, FreeEMS is in the lead in terms of maturity and number of engines running, and rusEfi is trying to catch up.

_________________
DIY ECU project - http://rusefi.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 18, 2015, 12:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2008, 6:06 pm
Posts: 3004
Location: Under the weather. (Seattle)
horizenjob wrote:
...and what would you find useful in an ECU for your own builds.
Unless you're planning to have a similarly integrated ITB capability that blends MAP/Alpha-N, I'll probably end up having to spend more than I'd like to on a MS3X...Although I have thought about just going with a MAF instead, since I'm also considering wrapping my GSXR throttle bodies in an air box plumbed to a high pressure fresh air supply anyways. Beyond that I would ideally be looking for sequential fueling, sequential COP ignition, closed loop, wideband O2, and knock sensor. That's the kind of stuff that I would consider the major features that would grab my (limited understanding) attention, even at a reduced price point. Obviously needs to have some type of reasonably well supported tuning software too. I'm not sure if a single USB port could be used for interfacing with the ECU as well as plugging in a thumb drive for data logging, or if that would have to be separate ports.

_________________
-Justin

Also follow my build on blogspot, tumblr, or instagram and twitter (GarageOdyssey)


Last edited by Driven5 on March 18, 2015, 1:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 18, 2015, 12:20 am 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7624
Location: Massachusetts
Quote:
start by adding voltage clamps on just about every line, especially the supply wire. The "12V" from the alternator can spike way higher than that, especially when inductive loads turn off. A 16V Zener downstream of the fuse and across the input would help protect it. For all the analog inputs you might need the same, depending what's being fed to it.


I had a 32V Zener in the drawing now, maybe we can compromise at 18V or 20V? I'm OK with 16 too and I know that's above the 14.5 average. I was thinking I would give something else in the car a chance to take some of the abuse. So the Zener should be rated high enough to blow the fuse, right?

I just started looking at protection for the analog inputs today.

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 18, 2015, 7:27 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: March 17, 2015, 8:10 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Jersey City, NJ
horizenjob wrote:
I just started looking at protection for the analog inputs today.

http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19 & http://rusefi.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=394

_________________
DIY ECU project - http://rusefi.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: A locost EFI
PostPosted: March 18, 2015, 8:11 am 
Online
User avatar

Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
Posts: 5027
Location: West Chicago,IL
Inputs are generally protected with 2 clamp diodes to the 2 rails. This controls low energy spikes. There should be some impedance in series and a small cap to ground to limit the energy let thru on inputs. This adds some delay to the signals. There are a myriad of ways to protect the inputs. Some IC's are internally protected at some level. Knowing how much is enough is the experience side of circuit design and knowing your installation application.

A Zener downstream of a fuse just guarantees a failure of the fuse, and the resultant dead unit. Maybe you won't kill the processor and other devices, but you will still be dead in the water. You will have to get out the soldering iron to fix. Not an easy repair at the track or on the side of the road.

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 138 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 10  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
POWERED_BY