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PostPosted: April 15, 2016, 8:51 pm 
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Plus im stuck in between using a ford expedition multilink irs or a Cadillac srx irs in the rear.


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PostPosted: April 15, 2016, 9:44 pm 
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jazz2561 wrote:
Now, the zero emissions part comes in with the electric generator powering a electric heater in the back of the car( cant tell what type of electric heater yet, surprises man.)
I can't wait to see what powers the electric generator. This is a fascinating thread, and I can understand why you'd want to keep some details under your hat.

We're moving this to the In Theory It Could Work forums; not because we don't have confidence you're going to follow through, but it ain't a build log until you start building. I look forward to seeing sparks fly and we'll bump this topic into Non-Traditional Builds Log ASAP.

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PostPosted: April 15, 2016, 10:54 pm 
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I need to decided on a irs that I wont grenade.


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PostPosted: April 15, 2016, 11:28 pm 
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I need to decided on a irs that I wont grenade.


How could you possibly do that?

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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 12:08 am 
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horizenjob wrote:
So you have burn fuel at twice the rate per horsepower. Good auto engines can do better than 0.5 lb. per horsepower for an hour, but we'll use 0.5 for a round number. That means a steam engine will burn 1 lb per hour for every horsepower.

I think these numbers mean you can drive around town and on highways at reasonable speeds if you do a good job. Jack is able to run his car on a 35 HP diesel so you need to be able to burn as much as 70 lbs. of fuel per hour or about 10 gallons per hour max for normal use. Half that much for cruising.


Horizenjob, some real world numbers to compare to your theory above.

Fuel consumption on my Cessna 172P is well documented and I've tested the following numbers many times and know that they're accurate. At 6000' it burns 7.0 gallons per hour (avgas is 6 lbs per gallon so 42 pounds per hour) with the engine running 2400 rpm (versus a redline of 2600 rpm) which produces 101 bhp (63% of max rating of 160 bhp). It's doing 107 knots at these settings. So 101 hp from 42 pounds of fuel...close to your 0.5 lbs/hp/hr number.

The only difference from your statement is that the Lycoming engine in the Cessna could not be called a "good" engine as it relates to fuel consumption as it is old technology and not particular fuel efficient. For those that are interested you can use the numbers above to calculate the mpg and you'll see what I mean. I think that a "good automotive engine" could do a launch better than 0'5 pounds of fuel per hp per hour. The Lycoming is a very "good" engine, though, if evaluated from the perspective of reliability.

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Last edited by BHRmotorsport on April 16, 2016, 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 12:21 am 
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Am I getting it right that you're going to drive a turbine with steam, to turn a generator, to heat water into steam? Even at a theoretic 100% efficiency you wouldn't be able to get any work out of it, and there's no way it will be 100% efficient. Lot's of people have been trying to build a perpetual motion machine for a long time and none have been successful. And the idea of using a hot water tank as a steam boiler is really scary, anyone suggesting that should look into what a BLEVE is. Or just watch some YouTube videos of hot water tank explosions from MMythbusters Plus it takes a lot of power to turn liquid h2o @100C to steam @100C, 2142 BTU/L to be exact, vs. 397 BTU/L to heat water from liquid at 0C to 100C, and I doubt a household hot water tank would be able to run much of a steam engine even if you did manage to keep it from exploding. A water tube boiler is much safer than a fire tube boiler. A steam powered car would be pretty cool, hopefully it all comes together for you.
Kristian

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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 1:22 am 
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BHRmotorsport wrote:
Horizenjob, some real world numbers to compare to your theory above.

Fuel consumption on my Cessna 172P is well documented and I've tested the following numbers many times and know that they're accurate. At 6000' it burns 7.0 gallons per hour (avgas is 7 lbs per gallon so 49 pounds per hour) with the engine running 2400 rpm (versus a redline of 2600 rpm) which produces 101 bhp (63% of max rating of 160 bhp). It's doing 107 knots at these settings. So 101 hp from 49 pounds of fuel...right on your 0.5 lbs/hp/hr number.

The only difference from your statement is that the Lycoming engine in the Cessna could not be called a "good" engine as it relates to fuel consumption as it is old technology and not particular fuel efficient. For those that are interested you can use the numbers above to calculate the mpg and you'll see what I mean. I think that a "good automotive engine" could do a launch better than 0'5 pounds of fuel per hp per hour. The Lycoming is a very "good" engine, though, if evaluated from the perspective of reliability.


I think avgas is 6lb/gal, at least according to my instructors and wikipedia. Unless you are using imperial gallons rather than US? 7 US gal/hr would mean a BSFC of around 0.42 lb/hr/hp, which is consistent with gasoline engines. Some of the most optimized designs achieve around 0.36 lb/hr/hp in cruise conditions.

The old lycosaurus and continental engines are actually not that bad in terms of fuel efficiency, all things considered. The poor fuel mileage in a 172 is due to the airframe design. Put that same engine in a modern lightweight two seater such as a thorp or RV and you can have cruise speeds over 150 kt at that power level. That's around 24 mpg with no wind. Not too many cars can do that while maintaining those kinds of speeds. :)


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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 1:41 am 
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Those airplane engines are impressive units. I think the 320 CID Lycoming weighs in under 200 lbs., and these engines run at high power levels for long periods of time.

A comparable crankshaft for a small block Ford or Chevy cost 3 or 4 thousand dollars...

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 Post subject: Re: I'm Backkkk!!!
PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 7:01 am 
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KB58 wrote:
Give steam and its pressure a lot of respect. Some or many (or all?) steam pressure vessels must undergo state inspections due to some very nasty explosions in the past. It still happens occasionally.


I had the job of welding up pits on the boiler of this Sentinel steam truck prior to its annual insurance inspection. I am curious as to what type of steam generator the said steam punk ratrod will use, having witnessed how much water and heat is needed to move this truck a mile down the road at a snails pace its going to need a nuclear power source .

Bob

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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 2:11 pm 
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Sorry I left out some details. The car has four small 5000 watt battery packs that is separated into two sections. The first section powers the heater and the flash generator. The steam goes from the generator to the engine and the tesla turbine. The tesla turbine turns the electric generator continuously. Now, when the first battery section is 25% depleted, the second section is activated and sends power to the heater at a variable rate to keep things balanced. The power from the first battery section is slowly cut until the second section has full control. Then, the power from the electric generator recharges, the first battery section (considering a small onboard supercharger, if possible.) Once the second battery section is 25% depleted, the circuit is slowly cut and the first battery section takes control, while the second section is recharging, and cycle continues just like that, with the power jumping back and forth between the two battery sections. I just have to keep the batteries cool and do not overcharge them and the car will basically be self sufficient. Since I'm using copper in the first stage and part of the second stage in the steam generator, and stainless steel to serve as a small superheater section, I really would need only 500-1000 watts to heat the water. If only the copper was not limited to max temp of 400 degrees Fahrenheit, I could make the first stage hotter.


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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 2:14 pm 
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Oh, and I am using a flash type boiler (monotube), which poses very little explosion risk. If you want to quote me on it, google doble e-20 steam car.


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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 3:25 pm 
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Then, the power from the electric generator recharges, the first battery section


This will move the charge between the battery packs, but it does not create power. Since you are likely only %25 efficient at making and applying the steam power, you will lose %75 of your charge every time you do this. Depleting %100 of power in battery pack 2, will only get you %25 increase in charge on battery pack 1.

The 3 laws of thermodynamics are harsh:
0. You must play
1. You can't win
2. You can't cheat
3. You can't quit

Do not waste time on a Tesla turbine. Build a double expansion engine. Use steel boiler tube, temperature control is difficult in a monotube boiler. Seek improvements after you get this working.

Do you mean 5000 watt/hour? If you apply 5000 watts to a boiler that's 6.6 HP. There are about 750 watts in a horsepower. Watts are the metric unit and every where in the world besides USA car engines are rated in watts.

Converting electricity to motion with an electric motor is efficient, the cost has been at the power plant. The battery is storing the work you did to create the electricity. You are trying to use electricity to generate electricity, so you are again going to lose the majority of your energy doing that.

The best minds the human race has generated have worked on these problems. They underlie everything in our modern lives. Maxwell, Plank, Einstein - you name it.

You can achieve some nice things here and the speed record might be within your grasp - but Tesla turbines and electric power are not going to help.

You need 100 HP or more for the speed record ( at least probably ). With electricity ( or anything else for that matter ), you will need to put something like 300,000 watts into your boiler...

That's what a gasoline engine is doing to make 100 HP.

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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 5:22 pm 
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Welp, time for plan b then, a propane burner. From what I have seen, propane is everywhere. Ill just have to consider its environmental impact. I'm still going with a monotube boiler because of simplicity and safety. Still need a small turbine to generate power for the electrical stuff so, I will just make it smaller.


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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 5:41 pm 
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I just learned that burning propane creates water and CO2. Ironically enough, I can reuse that waste water and filters exist to capture CO2...


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PostPosted: April 16, 2016, 6:50 pm 
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I know this sounds like a stupid question but I need a serious answer. Do all gas stations sell propane tanks?


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