LocostUSA.com

Hi everyone.. I am a 30 year old electrical engineer (by education... my job is too boring to discuss) and found this forum about 18 months ago.. I started reading then thinking I may need a new project. My friends often make fun of my constant need for projects, though none of my undertakings are even a fraction the size as something like this. Living in Florida, I started looking for hobbyist welding classes and a workspace, then about a year ago my work sent me to New York City and I will be here until the spring of 2012.

So, I've picked back up reading this forum like it's my crack. I figure if I have another 6 or 7 months of city living, I might as well start thinking, reading, learning, etc so I will not be a total bonehead (only a partial bonehead) when I get back to Tampa.

Previous automotive experience: Not much... Engine swap and bolt on mods on an '87 RX-7 when I was in high school... since then just some simple audio installations/wiring with fiberglass speaker boxes, that sort of junk.

Understanding Significant other: I'm single!

Capacity to learn: I believe so!

Anyways, cutting to the chase - I have some VERY BASIC ideas and I really just want to know if I am thinking about these things correctly.

I would like to build something 98% for driving on the street, the only competitive driving I might attempt would be local autocross.

I would like to buy a fully running donor, something FWD since I am most interested in a middy.

Something like a mid90's Acura Integra can be had in functioning condition for around $2k...Honda Prelude for a little more, Civic for a little less.

I happened on this thread: http://locostusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4079
Which discussed using two front ends. The design of the suspension might be a bit more than i am willing to take on, so it would appear to me this might take some of the design work out of it.

Assuming I get a whole, running donor... is it reasonable to think I can move the engine, transaxle, front uprights, front suspension to the rear (copying suspension mounting points and either using the stock A-arms or fabbing my own)? I could use the steering rack connections to adjust toe (as mentioned in thread link OP), and use the rear brakes from the donor so that I will have a parking break.

This would leave me the steering rack and front brakes from the original front of the donor -- needing only another set of uprights and A-arms (assuming I don't fab) for the locost front.

I would also be copying the wheelbase and track of the donor. With this line of reasoning, I believe I could have something sitting on wheels with the bulk of actual thought going only into the frame (I try to do as little real thinking as I possibly can, the world is probably a better place for it).

I would think a target of <1500 lbs, <$8000 including donor and tools (of which I have basically nothing but hand tools) is reasonable, though if it costs $9000 it isn't like I will have to give up breakfast for a year or anything.

Concerning the budget: I am willing to reuse as much of the donor as possible.. Seats, wheels, gauges, etc..
I am not really willing to spend the time and energy parting the rest out, though I imagine I might be able to sell whatever is left for a couple of hundred bucks, maybe a little more if I take the time to part out the big body/interior parts and then sell the shell with tiny bits as a whole.

Spending about 20 Hrs/week on average, I would hope to have at least a roller in about a year after buying the donor. I feel this is a very conservative estimate, but then again, I don't have the slightest clue what I am talking about. I suppose that's why I'm here..

Is this train of thought going the correct direction? Please tell me if I am making some faulty assumptions!

Sorry for the length of this post,
Jay "Read a lot of Dave Hempy's Sigs" V

Welcome!, the more the merrier!

Your doing pretty well in your thought process. Doing the reading is a big plus, so that's a good sign. You should take a look at the Midlana forums, check KB58's ( Kurt's ) signature for a pointer. Don't discount the traditional locost type car either too soon. I'm sure all the suspension and other stuff will start to make sense this winter if you keep thinking and reading.

It's hard to keep up the 20 hour a week pace, life intervens after awhile. Single guy with enough talent to build a car could land up finding a girl in NYC. I'm sure it's happened before!

Not sure the emergency brake works trying to fit the rear parts on the front uprights, but maybe you can.

As much as I like the idea of building cars and encouraging people to that, I'm not 100% sure you have a reasonable mix of goals. Ignoring the required determination and self discipline, there are basically four key essentials for building a car, of which three can be interchanged to some degree. Please forgive me if I beat some of this to death, when responding to posts like this I tend to write them for a very wide range of prospective builders.

The key ingredients are:

1) A reliable, stable build and storage location for the project and all related parts and tools - essential
2) Time - which can to some degree be offset by either experience (more knowledge means less time spent learning & experimenting) or money (buying parts instead of taking them off a donor, along with possibly needing to refurbish them, or building parts that may be available through a vendor)
3) Experience - which can to some degree be offset be money (buying new or refurbished parts and some services) or time (more reading, learning and experimentation)
4) Money - which cab be offset to some degree by Time (parting a donor; learning new skills) or experience (making fewer mistakes and/or being able to fabricate something instead of purchasing it)

The build space is essential, and not having it makes the project a non-starter. It doesn't need to be much, but it must be stable with all the resources needed to complete your build. Needing to move mid-build is an obstacle that can be overcome, but you should be stable enough to know that if a project move needs to happen, it will happen on your terms. Also, because a locost is essentially a completely unprotected car, it should probably live inside (or at least in a closed trailer) when not actually being used. It's not a great candidate for regular parking lot duty.

While time, experience and money can all be interchanged, not having the minimum of any of the three will stall a build dead. Also, between the three, you need to have a minimum "collective value" (lacking a better term) of probably the equivalent of about $20,000 in cash to successfully finish a build in about a year. with a starting budget of about $8k in cash, you will probably need to make up about another $12k of value through experience or time. If your skills are limited, then most of that value will need to be created through time spent learning and experimenting. Essentially both creating the experience and education needed as well as putting the required time into building the car. How many hours would $12k cash represent as unskilled labor?

From the sound of it, for your proposed build, you would need to re-create part of the donor's suspension and chassis geometry, design a chassis that allowed you to reuse a significant number of parts from the donor and minimize required custom fabrication and design. The goals can be met, but the car would probably feel like a significant compromise in terms of the final looks, fit and finish. Also with so many restrictions on chassis design (high donor parts re-use) I think it would be pretty easy to either design yourself into an uncomfortable corner, or miss one or more small details and end up needing to purchase or re-design and fabricate parts you had originally hoped to source from the donor. It feels a bit like deciding what to give someone for Christmas based on the gift box you wish to fit their gift into.

You mentioned a number of Honda vehicles as possible starting points. If you want to stay with a single Honda donor, I would recommend looking into the models that had double wishbone front suspension. I believe one model of both the Civic and and Integra used this front suspension in the past. A strut based car would be more challenging to convert to the double wishbone layout used in most of the builds on this site.

That said, I will offer the opinion that a Miata based locost build or a kit may be a better fit for what you are hoping to achieve. The kit will be more expensive up front, but allow you to better fit your goals of having a middy with minimal fabrication and a short build time. Alternatively, the Miata based build is fast becoming the US standard locost build. It's well documented with plans and lots of build log support available, and will produce a sports car with proven driveability and performance. This would also be faster to build than a custom middy and be easier to make changes to later because of all the existing support both here and on the Miata forums. Also, building a Miata based car would take more time than a kit, but less time than starting from scratch on a custom middy. An added bonus to either the kit or Miata build is that there are already (small) markets of people would be willing to buy the finished (or unfinished) car if you ever decided to sell it.

There are many good builds on this site, and a few of them have been completed in roughly the time frame you are considering. They are the exception, not the rule. Those builds are also usually done by people with essentially all of the required tools, skills, time and other required resources on hand. I can't recall any builds where someone has started a custom design from scratch, with few or no tools and fabrication skills, and without significant automotive or racing experience building anything but a kit in the time frame you mentioned.

Also don't underestimate the required investment in tools. I expect that even a minimum tool requirement for a locost or custom build would be about $1,500 including a basic welder. I suspect $2000 to $2,500 would be more realistic if you were starting with just a basic tool set and didn't have access to fabrication tools like a drill press and metal cutting and shaping tools. Again, it's probably possible to bypass some of the tool cost by buying pre-made parts or spending more time fabricating parts with fewer task specific tools.

Quite a ramble, but I do hope this helps your decision process some. This isn't impossible, but it is still quite a commitment.

Ahh you may be right about that... I should probably have said something like 10-20 hours on average.. Even that might be aggressive now that I think about it.

I will have to do some searching on how folks on here are setting up emergency brakes.... I'm sure there are other ways! From the reading I have done.. I have seen some guys hook up a smaller, separate caliper on the rear rotor..



I'll take all the advice I can get!

I am somewhat following you on the 'designing myself into a corner' part of it, but not completely... do you mean with copying the suspension design - or general reuse of as many parts as I can? Mostly I just want to copy the suspension design.. using the seats, wheels, etc are really just a thought towards reducing the cost of the project and could be bought or fabbed in some cases if needed... if copying the suspension is an issue, can you detail some examples as to what sort of consequences I would be facing? I'm not 100% sure I follow on that part...

Honda vehicle vs miata - I have mostly been researching the 94-01 Integra which, from my internet research had front double wishbone suspension and is plentiful with a lot of stock, running $2000 examples around central florida... However, you are definitely right about using the miata as a base. On the other hand, I am somewhat attached to the idea of a single, running donor. I think being able to physically see how the parts are assembled and interact on the intended vehicle would go a long way for someone like me who has a lot of learning to do... Then again, I could figure out pretty much everything I need miata related from midlana and there is no shortage of knowledge on here... That is a decision I would have to juggle, but would you say I am considering most of the pitfalls here? Or are there more I missed?

Time - I think we may have had a misunderstanding here, though I am not sure. I don't think there is a chance in hell I could finish the build in a year... I am hoping to have a frame which sits on wheels and steers while someone pushes me around making "vrooom vroom" sounds in 1 year. Is that reasonable for a beginner, do you think? (Assuming I stay motivated and don't let the project sit for months at some point)

Tools - this is one part I feared I had underestimated the cost... In my mind I was thinking $1k-1.5k, looks like I am about a thousand dollars off.

$2k (Donor), $2k Tools, leaves me $4-5k left for everything else. I think it could be done, but again, I don't really know.. though this seems in line with what other (albeit more experienced builders) have been able to do, if not a little less. That being said, if I am even 9k into the project and still need another $800 I'm not going to abandon the project (though if I am $5k deep and see another $15k coming I might!), you know what I mean? I am financially stable and am taking this project on in lieu of purchasing a project car to work on (which seems far easier and less exciting to me)...

Jay

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=4082&hilit=vq30de

Plenty of info on adapting a fwd to middy use...

Hi Jay and welcome to the forum!

I think I was in a similar situation to you until recently. Originally I knew I wanted to build my own car but had no-freaking-clue where to start so that idea always fizzled out in my head. More recently, I saw a friends locost kit and it intreagued me. At this point, I still did not know that people were building them themselves so never really followed it up.

Then I bumped into someone who built one from scratch. This realisation opened my mind and I started to get all sorts of ideas in my head that I could build my dream mid-engined car. I kept changing my plans, going for bigger engines (BMW S52?) etc. Eventually I realised that I was starting to run, but I had not yet learned to walk.

That's when I stepped back. Before I try to build my dream car, I need to try to build a car. I also saw the episode of Top Gear where the stig had a lot of fun in the Caterham R500(I now have a matchbox one on my monitor at work lol - sad?). I decided I need to build a Miata Locost before adventuring into the world of building my dream car. With all the support and existing knowledge on building such a car, I can concentrate on developing my fabrication skills and make sure that car building is something I want to do again. If it is a success, I can then go on to design and build my dream midi. I'll also have the advantage of having a lot more experience to call on when I get into tricky design situations. I too know from experience just building racing Minis that it is very easy to work yourself into a hard-to-solve corner. It would be many times worse building a car like this from scratch.

So even though I have not started my build yet, I too suggest you go the Miata Locost route. An 'easy' build to get your feet wet. Tune it up a bit and you too could have almost as much fun as The Stig http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tN6_xUL8j4

I have already spent $1300 on tools for the build, and that's just my TIG welder ($800 - a bargain for what it is) and high quality welding helmet ($500 - my eyes are precious, I don't mind splashing out on a Speedglas to not get flashed)

Whatever you choose, GOOD LUCK! We all look forward to watching your progress on here

Tom...

I started looking into locosts and kits four or five years ago. I've read a few books, a lot here and a lot on other kit car forums. My time due to work and kids is somewhat limited, so I'm learning what I can and will hopefully be able to pull something off in the next few years. Good luck. I'm sure you will learn a great deal from the folks here.

I'll begin at the beginning. .. Howdy!!!

OK, first off erioshi is dead on with his #1 especially. 2, 3 and 4 you may find friends, coworkers, frat brothers, whoever with knowledge and skills they'l share happily which could ease the time load as well as your stress level. Money I doubt but
Nothing like goofing up together to make it easier to accept, just ask Bubba

As far as a Honda donor, why not if it's what YOU want? Honda has used enough cross platform fitments that you could probably deal with most issues such as what rear caliper to use by swapping in one from another model.
However:
Changing configuration to a midi, and I assume, lowering the center of gravity, will make so much of a change in the characteristics that you'll find it beneficial to redesign at least some of it to take advantage of that.

Chapman struts are an easy way to get a lot of stuff in a small space and your own lower rear links (at most) may be all you find yourself wanting, a lot easier than a double wishbone and more than adequate for your stated use.
IIRC the Honda double wishbone setup is rather TALL once you remove all the sheetmetal with the upper balljoint near the top of the tire. Probably look kinda funky out there playing in the breeze.



If you could use one of the (early) torsion bar lower arms (and the torsion bar) as an upper arm in front. ..

The problem is, once you get into the design process a little problem called mission creep will set in, trust me one that

Can't ask him... I fired that sumbich for buildin all them damned crooked brackets!

JDK

Welcome to the group! Please don't take any of my remarks as trying to discourage you from building a car.

We did a semi-survey a while back and we came up with an average guess of $5K to build a car and 5 years to do it. That was for a pretty standard Locost and didn't include tools. I absolutely agree with oldejack about heeding erioshi's advice.

I've been playing with and building cars for 63 years and believe me, designing a space frame car and the front suspension from scratch as the first car you've ever built is really biting off a lot. And with a rear engine design IRS you also have to design that suspension too (as opposed to a normal rear end). You'll need to do a lot of reading and research to get up to speed. Basically you are teaching yourself automotive design to do a complete design (not just the ash tray etc).

The most important part of the design process is the front suspension. Even if you transplant a donor cars complete suspension to your chassis design that doesn't mean you will automatically have as good a handling car that you could have. Mainly because many standard cars just don't have good enough steering geometry to start with (for what we would expect a Locost to be capable of). And as the drawing of the Honda suspension shows, you will in many/most cases have to modify the front suspension to even mount it on a Locost. Using a suspension design program will show that if you are off by 0.050" on critical mounting points the geometry will be affected. Of course most people won't notice the affect but it is there.

In most cases (all?) you can't just transplant the donor's front suspension to a Locost chassis because the dimensions of the Locost won't be the same as the donor car. Most donor's are going to have a longer wheelbase than a Locost so immediately the Ackermann angles are off. Moving the mounting points of the "A" arms will cause all sorts of design properties to change.

Here's a quote from my website about the time to even finish my car that came as a roller with the main parts already installed,
"Since I'm retired, I was able to spend 3 to 5 hours a day (for a year) working on the car. In the beginning it was probably more like 5 to 10 hours a day. Even though the car was a roller you can see that it took an additional 1500 to 2000 hours to complete the build."

All of this is not to discourage you at all from building a car. Many people who had NO experience at all have completed cars. But I would guess that most of them were front engine rear drive cars. Champion was a technical school teacher and guided 14 year kids to build Locosts.

To sum up, I think it is better to build a fairly standard Locost as the first car. You will have lot's of examples to follow and it will make your build go much smoother. Most of the problems you encounter will probably have been solved by other builders. McSorley http://www.sevenesque.com/plans/ has plans on his website that you can download for various sized RWD cars.

Keep asking questions, we're here to help.

Wow all of this definitely answer that question... Thanks everyone for all the input! Particularly the picture which perfectly illustrates the compromises I would end up making going the route I had described..

Looks like if I am hellbent on not designing my own suspension, I should probably go the miata route.

NEW PLAN: Copy midlana's suspension design. =)

Next question: If I am so inclined, can I take the track, wheelbase, and suspension design from a working example (like midlana) and customize the rest of the frame without a ton of impact (also assuming I don't make a ton of changes to the overall frame)? For example, maybe something as simple as widening the front up a bit so my feet aren't so cramped? Does that make sense?

Jay

I haven't kept up with the midlana build, but if his design works (and I'm sure it will) and you duplicate it you should be good to go. You might want to wait to see if he has to tweak it a little later.

This site has plans for various lengths, width & height Locost chassis. You will probably find one that suits what you want to do.

http://www.sevenesque.com/plans/

The some of the tube lengths in the 'book", Ron Champion's, "Build your own sports car", were not correct and the front most tubes that the "A" arm mounting brackets mount on were shown to be the wrong angle. There is a thread on the forum that describes the various dimension changes that need to be made. I really haven't checked but I would assume that McSorley corrected that on his plans.

Since my car is a BEC the tunnel didn't have much in it except the drive shaft. I was able to use a 2" deep aluminum baking pan to extend the foot room space 3" to the right of the gas pedal by mounting the pan on it's side inside the tunnel. You can see the end result here,

http://dmr-architect.com/%7Elocouki/foot-well.html

If you go to links at the bottom of the home page you will see several articles of how I corrected my front suspension. There you will find pictures that show the finished modified RX-7 upright and how I modified it further to correct the geometry.

I honestly feel the chassis is one area that making some changes is reasonable as long as they are for the right reasons, and very well thought out. If you do choose to follow a traditional locost build, please be aware that widening the foot box could upset the design and building of the engine bay, hood area and potentially even the scuttle of the car if you try to push the rails outward to find the needed room.

As I have said in other threads, the chassis is really just a big bracket that needs to be strong enough to hold all of the major components and the occupants in place, without allowing the stresses from normal driving or minor accidents to allow any of those components to be displaced. Be very aware of the load paths, and how force will transmitted through the chassis under both normal driving and in situations where something bad is likely to happen.

Engine mounts are an example of one area where I think this community has room for improvement; I suspect a number of the mounts found in build logs here would let the engine shift forward in a mild front-end bump. In a traditional locost I suspect that's not too much of an issue as the engine would be pulled away from the passenger area; a front end wreck in a middy with a poor engine mount design could allow the engine to come flying forward into the passenger area (at whatever speed) like a giant 400 lb anchor. Potentially very bad news.

I'm not trying to scare you, or talk you out of building, but please understand that the consequences of poorly made choices could be quite serious. Cars traveling at almost any speed have a huge amount of kinetic energy, and if something does wrong that energy needs to be released somehow. If you're the builder, you should probably have some understanding of what is likely to happen.

Like every other decision in the making of a locost, knowledge is essential for improving the quality of your choices. If you want to make changes to the chassis design, read through a couple of the chassis oriented books recommended by other builders. Because this is ultimately your car, and you will be making all of the decisions about how the final product comes together, you should understand why you are making the choices you are, and be able to back up those decisions with sound reasoning, reference materials and possibly even some math. Keep reading; as you learn more your choices will become easier, and you will understand why those choices are right for your build.

Hah!

Have you bought and read the Kimini book? Sorry if you already mentioned it.