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This is my current bike engined toy.



It is powered by a 93 gsxr 600. It runs pretty good but after this season I want more power. The 1100 gsxr motor will bolt in but I would like to get away from carbs. There are also high priced. For the price of a 1100 motor I can get one of the newer 1000 ready to drop in. I don't know which ones work well in a car. Do I need to dry sump them. I know a guy how built a At-om type car powered by a ZX14 and killed it after a few race because of oil problems. I don't want this to happen. I just need to know what engines work well in a car with little mods. thanks Chad

Out of curiosity, does your 600 have a dry sump now? You could use an accumulator setup instead of dry sumping. Although it seems that a dry sump would be the better way to go.

I'd say you ought to dry sump for real racing but I base than only on what I've read. My car has the dry sump conversion. But it was also done to get the engine lower in the chassis because the stock sump is sort of triangular shaped when viewed from the side. My sump is only ~2" thick. The conversion eliminates the water pump and you have to use an electric water pump which does the job fine on my car.

You might get some ideas by looking at some of the English BEC Locost sites where they are racing with GSXR engines. But I'm sure there are BEC racers here that will chime in.

Hi Chad,
Questions and comments.
My first question is, is there enough cooling to handle a larger engine? Not much of a problem if you're in front but if you're buried in the pack it could become a problem.
A later model TB setup is fairly easy to install and a Microsquirt should be enough to drive them. .. that'd get you fuel injection and a choice in throttle bores.
There are a number of things you can do to change the engine behavior fairly easily, advancing the cam a few degrees will bring the powerband lower in the rpm, a trumpet on the intake will increase lower rpm torque at the expense of upper end power, etc.
I'd start with a set of trumpets, you can experiment with tubes and clamps to find your sweet spot length and if the 750 cam sprockets will fit a 600, those run about 60 bucks.
A set of trumpets will reduce some of the low end torque loss if you go to a larger TB and you'll still have increased flow at the higher rpms. .. It becomes more of a balancing act requiring experimentation.

How about a new 600 motor? What's the power difference on a 20 year newer motor? I had a GS-1100 and I think the 600 put out as much power now.

An 1100 would push your top speed up into 160 territory and I'm thinking that could get scary in that car, no offense... Is this just for parking lot use?

Maybe your motor is tired or for one reason or another the carbs are not tuned well.

Looks fast, BTW. Do you have any videos, we love moving pictures!

Some bikes have dry sumps from the factory, but they tend to be cruisers and not racers. Most Harleys are dry sumped. On a bike where the oil goes in a separate tank, typically right under the seat on in the frame, then it is a dry sump system.

To add to Rowdy's comments, for wet sumps, an accumulator, such as a sprung piston accusump with a few gallons of capacity, T'd into the oil pressure switch boss should be adequate for most turns if there is sufficient time between turns. When the pump looses pressure from lack of oil in the pan, the spring loaded piston provides the pressure until it runs out of travel, pushing the oil back into the engine.

There needs to be a valve that is opened after the engine is running and before it is shut off, to prevent the oil in the accumulator from dumping it's contents into an already full crank case. Kits typically come with a valve.

Before cranking, the crankcase level should be checked. If it is over full (i.e. a leaking valve, new accumulator, system was opened, etc) the excess should be drained. Once running, the known capacity of the accumulator can be added slowly.

IMHO, any wetsump bike engine in a 4 wheeled race car should at least have an accumulator.

I agree, but there are a few that have a deep and narrow enough sump to work well without:
Two LeMons teams have run CBR1000RR engines in a Z600 and Geo Metro, and the metro ran over 100hrs of racing before it threw a rod. The Honda 600rr engines also seem to work ok in FSAE, where the GSXR engines had oil piling up in the alternator cover at high 'g' loads.

I'll second Marcus's suggestion about a newer 600. You should be able to gain a good 10-15hp and a better powerband. Plus they're cheaper than a liter engine.

I have an F4i engine in mine (its around 500 lbs without driver) and it seems like more than enough power. I'm to the point that more corner grip would help more than more power.

What kind of final drive gearing are you running? I currently have a 3.83 final drive ratio and I have the box's first gear locked out (second is now first).

Do you have any more shots of the car? Old FSAE cars are awesome.

Lots of questions to answer. It is an autocross and time trial car. I am a welder and machinist by trade and know all the mechanical stuff. I also have a degree in auto mechanics. the reason I am looking for more power is that I am starting to add aero. With the added downforce I am going to need more power. the motor is still pretty strong for as old as it is. The good thing about old FSAE cars is that they don't get run to much. The factory rated it at 105hp I think. I made 65hp at 10,000 rpm when I let off of it on the dyno. The cards were not right then and I doing know how bad the tach on the older bikes were. It will rev to 13,500. I plan to dyno it again in a few weeks before the season starts. It is geared pretty low and don't know the ratio off the top of my head. I have had it over 100mph and it get kind of scary up there. The front end gets real light. Feels like it could flip over backwards at any time. That is way I need downforce.
I have more problems getting it warm then overheating.
I have helped tune a few cars back in the day when I was street racing. I don't like cards at all because I don't know much about tuning them. FI is easy. Look at the AF and make some changes.
My engine is not dry sump. It has a custom pan but the stock pan isn't very deep on these old gixxers. I know I can make a lot of power out of the old 1100 but they are starting to get hard to find. Collectors have started to buy them and the price is going up. For about the same money I can buy a newer motor and be better off in the long run.
I was wondering what brands do most of you use and if you had good luck with them. I tried to get Suzuki to give me some money but they are not doing so well right now. I may try to talk with one of the other companies. I have ridden bike since I was 4 and to tell you the truth I don't like Suzuki that much. I had a lot of problems with them growing up. But this motor has not had any problems.
I am leaning more toward Yamaha. I have always had good luck with them. FZ1 or R1 I don't know yet. I know some people on here run them let me know what you found out.. Chad


ps here is a video.

Looks like a blast.

Wikipedia says the 1992 and 1993 put out 80 hp. Then again who knows with Wikipedia - it could be wrong.

In general the Honda factory wet sumps seem to work pretty well in cars. I'm guessing their typically narrow and tall shape is to thank.

I add an extra half a quart of oil to the F4i since starvation tends to occur during long right hand turns - the little extra oil fixes the problem. I've been playing around with a windage tray but haven't really gotten much testing data to prove whether it helps or not.

I knew someone that had a CBR929RR - going from memory the engine looked like it wasn't much larger than a 600. Since 900cc is sort of an odd size you might be able to get it cheaper than a liter engine and Wikipedia says the early 2000s ones put out about 150 hp.

I am a firm believer in a real oil pressure gauge on any BEC. The warning light triggers at too low of a pressure to be useful. If you fit a gauge and watch it carefully until you are sure the oiling system is sufficient, you should be fine.

I would add to this and say the stock pressure sensor for the warning light should be replaced with an adjustable one. Then you can set it so that it shouldn't light except perhaps when idling with hot oil, but much higher then stock. I use around 40 lbs. You then need a light you will notice when in the midst of the fray so to speak. I use a trailer taillight in the center of my steering wheel.

In a 20 year old engine the carbs will need attention. I'm not sure hwat's on that engine, but they used to use rubber manifolds to attach the carbs. They are likely much harder now and may be vibrating the carbs? Not sure if that is an issue.

I would caution you a bit, fix up that motor or get a new and stronger 600. My FF has about 105 HP and will go 130 or so. It weighs a lot more then your car and looks a good bit stronger, at least the roll bar and it's braces, but also possibly the suspension. I don't know why your car feels too light at 100. It looks like you have plenty of body weight and some engine weight on the front wheels. It also doesn't look like it would make a lot of lift. So consider if there are other issues?

If you put on aero and depend on it, you will be in big trouble when you get backwards at 110. It only took me a few track events to achieve that, you may be better or worse - but don't think it can't happen. Especially with the short wheelbase you have.

Nice video!

Only reason I'd take a gauge over just a light is so you know the exact pressure. Most bike engines will drop to 10 psi or less at idle when warm but you need way more pressure under load. If you set your adjustable light to go off at 25 psi, it will be on at idle or low rpm whether you have oil pressure or not. You could have something fail and not realize it until its too late. If you set it to go off at 10 psi, the engine could be sucking air in a corner and dropping to 11 psi and you wouldn't know it until the engine starts knocking.

When I busted the pan on my Locost, the gauge reading 0 was actually what caught my eye rather than the light since the sun was at my back. When I verified that the light was also lit I knew something bad happened and it wasn't just a failed sender. I was able to shut the engine down, coast to a stop, and it minimized the damage. Its cheap insurance to have both - it saved several engines during my FSAE days and so far it has saved one Locost engine.

I'm with you on this, just think the light is good for a warning when you're actually driving at speed on track. SOmetimes it's hard to watch the gauges, that's something you check once a lap maybe. You need the gauge to even set the light. The light is always on when you're in staging or the grid etc. It shouldn't light at speed on the track though.

Just thought it was a good extra warning. You need the gauge to spot trends too, like gee, didn't I have 10 lbs. more last weekend?

Cooling wouldn't be an issue, the rad can VERY easily be swapped out for a factory 1000/1100 one as needed with a bit of steel, if needed.



I'll agree with this. I've got a few years of experience in FSAE now (and several more in BEC research/design), and depending on the engine you'll either need to top it off a bit more, install a baffle in the pan and/or an accumulator to prevent oil starvation in the corners, or (not necessarily needed but beneficial in several ways aside from cost/complexity ) a full-out dry pump system. I've got some SAE papers on both baffle and dry sump system design around here, if I can find them.

Installing an EFI system would be more of a scavenger hunt than anything else if you'd go for something like microsquirt, which would come away cheaper than most anything else if replacing factory carbs with tb's but would require a little trial and error unless you can find a number of documented builds/sources. If working with a factory EFI, unless you're ripping it all off and putting in a standalone (which is difficult on some bikes due to emissions/valve/etc. systems), it'd be good to know the potential and downsides of the factory setup. Any engine would need a re-map when totally new exhaust and intake systems are fitted, which something like PowerCommander would handle cheaply, if applicable to that engine, as I'm not familiar with those engines/efi setup nearly as much as yamaha stuff.