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PostPosted: March 14, 2015, 9:42 pm 
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Hello everyone, my name is Vincent and im from SW Michigan. My current DD is an 03 Evo with a 95 talon AWD as the toy. This is a project thread ive been dreaming up and researching for about 6 months in my free time. I expect this to take quite a lot of time since im having to learn to do everything from scratch :ack: To minimize costs im planning on designing as much of the chassis and suspension through CAD drawings and wood modeling. (also have a dirt floor 1 car garage with the mother-in-laws '75 formula in residence) At the moment im getting my hands on all the useful free software and literature i can find

The Idea is a minimal cost unique tube chassis V8 powered AWD midi with some splurging for designs i really want to use to maximize on track peformance without causing excessive wear and tear during the 90% street driving. Ive already run across a couple similar ideas in the forum but i was so disappointed when the most promising project suddenly stopped being updated.

I want to keep the chassis very stiff to handle possible future power increases and to maximize suspension effectiveness. so im aiming for 10,000ft/lbs per deg torsional stiffness. 100% ackerman since there is no way to know what the tire slip angles will be and its best for the normal street driving. wheelbase will be be roughly 95". Aiming for 1500-1800lbs(351 windsor is about 80 to 100lbs heavier than LS1 :shock: ) wheel movement aiming for +3 or 4" and -2"

Planned parts:

Space frame/backbone hybrid
dual wishbone with toelink rear(simple enough for me to figure out with Wishbone)
inboard brakes all around
Foxbody mustang 5.0 V8 and t5 trans (rated for 300ft/lb tq)($200 "621" bellhousing to LSx swap :twisted: )
s10 4x4 tailhousing for the t5 to enable mating to a
BW4472 transfer case(rated 500ft/lb tq)(1/3 power to front and mechanical)
B6 audi A4 aluminum rear knuckles on all 4 corners(steel hubs are sure to be cheaper and the inboard brakes can be passed up for more standard design)

Tentatively selected other parts:
245/40/R17 (common and ive got an extra set of wheels for them)
evo brembos or f-body aluminum calipers(2001ish celica or MRs brakes are cheaper less rotating mass and probably plenty for less than 300hp)
audi or dsm/evo differentials and halfshafts(LSD and non-LSD for front available)(more agreeable cups into diff for mounting brake disks would be a huge plus)
dsm driveshaft (3 piece allows for a jog back to centerline after the oilpan to front diff)
currently the halfshafts and driveshafts are where i plan to adapt parts to work together

Please offer any advice, concerns or constructive criticism

Many of the people on here really know their way around solid modeling and engineering stuff and since this is admittedly going to take years for me to do id like to put out an open invitation for anyone that wants to help create a public design project a la opensource. Is Weldments a standalone program? Iv only started looking at the software section and what it offers for CAD programs. Once i get something in Wishbone worth sharing ill post it

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PostPosted: March 15, 2015, 12:16 am 
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Call Ken Block and see if he'll send you pics of the "Mustang" used in GymKhana 7.

Tom

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PostPosted: March 15, 2015, 12:18 am 
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You'll find 10,000 ft.lbs./deg a very tall order to meet in reality. Otherwise, good luck! That is an ambitious list of goals that will not be easy or as cheap as you'd hope.


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PostPosted: March 15, 2015, 2:16 am 
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Location: canada
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inboard brakes all around
Are a terrible idea. What are you trying to accomplish using them?

Quote:
Foxbody mustang 5.0 V8 and t5 trans (rated for 300ft/lb tq)($200 "621" bellhousing to LSx swap )

Ford trans and Chev bellhousing. Won't work. Depth (input shaft) and the front of trans case (bore diameter and bolt pattern, both) are different Ford to GM.
Quote:
s10 4x4 tailhousing for the t5
Means you have limited yourself to a non world class T5. Not wise.
Quote:
B6 audi A4 aluminum rear knuckles on all 4 corners(steel hubs are sure to be cheaper and the inboard brakes can be passed up for more standard design)
Lost me as to what you mean, toward the end of the sentence, but as for the start, how are you going to add steering arms, with correct Ackerman to the rear spindles? Do they have correct SAI/KPI? One doubts it.


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PostPosted: March 15, 2015, 10:57 am 
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Good luck with this idea, Vincent. It's ambitious, and will require a lot of engineering, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

It sounds like you're willing to be flexible and put your ideas out there for constructive criticism, which is probably a good idea at this point. Everything is in your mind's eye or on paper or in CAD, hence very little investment in $$$ and a good time to think things through and make changes.

I'm not a person who knows a lot about AWD systems. Perhaps you do? One thing I would look at (with the hindsight of doing a unique, one-off variant of the Haynes Roadster) is the possibility of getting an AWD donor (perhaps another Talon, since you know the car already) and start there. You are looking at a lot of engineering with your hybrid proposal. It's been too long since I've see a Talon, but weren't they from back in the I4/with-turbo era? If they're not turbocharged, perhaps that's where you could get your big horsepower from instead of a V8?

If you want a V8, I can certainly understand that. Are there any cheap, V8, AWD cars you could use as a donor?

Cheers,

Lonnie

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: March 15, 2015, 11:43 am 
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iadr wrote:
Quote:
inboard brakes all around
Are a terrible idea. What are you trying to accomplish using them?

Quote:
Foxbody mustang 5.0 V8 and t5 trans (rated for 300ft/lb tq)($200 "621" bellhousing to LSx swap )

Ford trans and Chev bellhousing. Won't work. Depth (input shaft) and the front of trans case (bore diameter and bolt pattern, both) are different Ford to GM.
Quote:
s10 4x4 tailhousing for the t5
Means you have limited yourself to a non world class T5. Not wise.
Quote:
B6 audi A4 aluminum rear knuckles on all 4 corners(steel hubs are sure to be cheaper and the inboard brakes can be passed up for more standard design)
Lost me as to what you mean, toward the end of the sentence, but as for the start, how are you going to add steering arms, with correct Ackerman to the rear spindles? Do they have correct SAI/KPI? One doubts it.


1. this is to minimize unsprung weight, lightweight cars struggle with compliance of the suspension as it becomes a larger percentage of the total weight of the car.
2. Its a borg warner transmission that comes stock on everything from jaguars to jeeps to chevy astro vans to the newer V6 mustangs and foxbody V8 mustangs. Ill have to check again but i believe when the WC trans came out in 93 they completely dropped the option for a GM bolt patern. i know all 93+ F body V6 models came with a ford bolt pattern t5.
3. the tailhousing will actually interchange between world class and non world class
4. By playing with the wheel offset and angle the hub is mounted most things can be adjusted to something acceptable, but if the ball joint locations dont work another idea was to use the aluminum front knuckle but it would have to be cut down and a new upper ball joint location added. This has been one of the areas im concentrating on most and have been reading a lot about how the formula SAE teams deal with lightweight hubs(there is a ton of information on FSAE designs available, its lightweight even for locost standards, and my design is bound to be one of the heaviest just because of the chassis design requirements im aiming for)

Also ken blocks mustang is actually where this whole idea came together, he uses a $30k+ sequential racing trans in it and i was trying to figure out if i could cobble together parts to build something with AWD and the engine facing forward. lol

Great info on T5 Tailhousing swaps
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thre ... st-2185366

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PostPosted: March 15, 2015, 3:36 pm 
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Location: S.W. Michigan
Lonnie-S wrote:
Good luck with this idea, Vincent. It's ambitious, and will require a lot of engineering, but that doesn't mean it can't be done.

It sounds like you're willing to be flexible and put your ideas out there for constructive criticism, which is probably a good idea at this point. Everything is in your mind's eye or on paper or in CAD, hence very little investment in $$$ and a good time to think things through and make changes.

I'm not a person who knows a lot about AWD systems. Perhaps you do? One thing I would look at (with the hindsight of doing a unique, one-off variant of the Haynes Roadster) is the possibility of getting an AWD donor (perhaps another Talon, since you know the car already) and start there. You are looking at a lot of engineering with your hybrid proposal. It's been too long since I've see a Talon, but weren't they from back in the I4/with-turbo era? If they're not turbocharged, perhaps that's where you could get your big horsepower from insteinad of a V8?

If you want a V8, I can certainly understand that. Are there any cheap, V8, AWD cars you could use as a donor?

Cheers,

Lonnie


Hi Lonnie ive actually gone through a lot of options for engines and drivetrain but this is the simplest and cheapest configuration by far. other options ive gone through require more electronics mitsubishi montero, nissan skyline(also big $ cuz of rarity), or even bigger and heavier like the Cadillac escalade, ford explorer(also only automatic) or only automatic like the chevy astro van and escalade, explorer. The foxbody engine and trans(actually just found that 94-95 kept the same engine/trans combo till the 4.6L was instituted in 96) can be had from any junkyard, transfer cases run $150-$200

The biggest problem with that is that besides finding a european model like the ford RS200 that i can afford and then part out.......there arnt any transmissions that send power back up to the front wheels. I did find out that the T56 transmission can be mated to 4wd or AWD transfer cases and that thing comes stock on everything from a viper to corvettes and mustangs, it is super strong and only about 135-150lbs but they are super expensive and so is everything associated with them.

The biggest obstacle i see with my project so far are the inboard brakes, i may have to do some serious modifications to halfshafts but i figure that will be easier than trying to modify the major components. Also if i cant figure it out i can just take the whole audi knuckles, brakes and all.

I considered ditching the inboard brakes but then i wouldnt require the AWD and ditching it would help with unsprung weight and help with parasitic powertrane loss. this would also let me use transaxles and shorten the chassis. that brings me to my competing idea of putting a boxer 4 or 6 engine in a midi and making the car as light and low as possible which would make a great track car but still have all the typical midi locost manners on the street

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PostPosted: March 16, 2015, 1:26 pm 
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Just a thought. It may be irrelevant. I believe the later Mercury Mountaineers came only in an AWD version and only with the 5.0L V8. There is no low range in the transfer case. It's just full time AWD, computer controlled, I think. It has independent front and rear axles, which are the same as the Explorer, so there are numerous and cheap aftermarket parts available.

Stock, it only came with an automatic. However, based on your remarks above with respect to the T56, maybe it's possible to mate the Mountaineer AWD transfer case to a manual transmission too? It might be worth asking that question on the Explorer/Mountaineer forums, anyway.

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

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PostPosted: March 16, 2015, 9:12 pm 
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Aetro wrote:
BW4472 transfer case(rated 500ft/lb tq)(1/3 power to front and mechanical)


You are mistaken.

The BW4472 has a viscous coupling and a 33F/66R torque split in it's original orientation. Once you flip the drivetrain back to front it's a 66F/33R split in a substantially rear-heavy car, and if your second hand transfer case has a worn out viscous coupling you'll essentially have a mid engined FWD car.

You aren't going to get the results you want without a custom transfer case.

Aetro wrote:
a european model like the ford RS200 that i can afford and then part out...


Just FYI, an RS200 is a $150k+ car.

Aetro wrote:
I considered ditching the inboard brakes but then i wouldnt require the AWD


This makes it sound like you really only want awd so that you can use the front axles for inboard brakes. Is this correct?


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PostPosted: March 19, 2015, 12:39 am 
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Joined: May 17, 2008, 10:55 pm
Posts: 315
Location: canada
Quote:
Foxbody mustang 5.0 V8 and t5 trans (rated for 300ft/lb tq)($200 "621" bellhousing to LSx swap )

Ford trans and Chev bellhousing. Won't work. Depth (input shaft) and the front of trans case (bore diameter and bolt pattern, both) are different Ford to GM.
Quote:
s10 4x4 tailhousing for the t5
Means you have limited yourself to a non world class T5. Not wise.

2. Its a borg warner transmission that comes stock on everything from jaguars to jeeps to chevy astro vans to the newer V6 mustangs and foxbody V8 mustangs. Ill have to check again but i believe when the WC trans came out in 93 they completely dropped the option for a GM bolt patern. i know all 93+ F body V6 models came with a ford bolt pattern t5.
3. the tailhousing will actually interchange between world class and non world class


Great info on T5 Tailhousing swaps
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/thre ... st-2185366[/quote]

There were fewer than 30 WC short case internals made for an aborted Panther of England midi, and at most maybe twice that again made out of service parts that are 10 years unavailable. I have one of those latter parts that I felt completed my collection of: a trans from one make and model (WC), and trans output housing from another (NWC), and that it was ready to assemble. It went through myself, and very good local trans shop, and eventually got shipped internationally to someone who had thought of this, and had the skills from being the shop foreman at G-Force on how it might be made to work. Notice that the worldwide expert had never seen these samples of these parts before. Count on US$3K. You don't understand how output halves of the transmission must be specific in length and spline size to match the input side of the transfer case. Not just the case, but the load transferring internals. There are no OE combo's to do this with a WC T5. Trust me. Put the $2700 and the 60-100 hours of research & phone calls into it that I have and get back to us. At best you are going to use 23 spline outputs from the aftermarket that I believe are NLA, but you might find one. Then you need to find a 23 (vs 27 spline) TC, but it wouldn't have the right "stick out" and then what are you going to do for a 5th-gear gear-pair? and how is it going to shift into 5th and reverse?
Hamb is full of misinformation, T5's especially... and anyway I posted there on this exact topic April21 of 2007.


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PostPosted: March 21, 2015, 10:24 pm 
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iadr wrote:
Quote:
There were fewer than 30 WC short case internals made for an aborted Panther of England midi, and at most maybe twice that again made out of service parts that are 10 years unavailable. I have one of those latter parts that I felt completed my collection of: a trans from one make and model (WC), and trans output housing from another (NWC), and that it was ready to assemble. It went through myself, and very good local trans shop, and eventually got shipped internationally to someone who had thought of this, and had the skills from being the shop foreman at G-Force on how it might be made to work. Notice that the worldwide expert had never seen these samples of these parts before. Count on US$3K. You don't understand how output halves of the transmission must be specific in length and spline size to match the input side of the transfer case. Not just the case, but the load transferring internals. There are no OE combo's to do this with a WC T5. Trust me. Put the $2700 and the 60-100 hours of research & phone calls into it that I have and get back to us. At best you are going to use 23 spline outputs from the aftermarket that I believe are NLA, but you might find one. Then you need to find a 23 (vs 27 spline) TC, but it wouldn't have the right "stick out" and then what are you going to do for a 5th-gear gear-pair? and how is it going to shift into 5th and reverse?
Hamb is full of misinformation, T5's especially... and anyway I posted there on this exact topic April21 of 2007.


Ah, i understand now, at least parts of what you said. Tailshafts arent all compatible even when the housings will bolt together. one guy suggested "T5 # 1352-195 is a great camaro trans to use, and if you wanted to you could use the output shaft from a 93 S10 WC T5 # 1352-222 to convert it to a awd/4wd style" here http://www.astrosafari.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=13906
I looked up the #1352-222 at http://www.britishv8.org/Articles/Borg-Warner-T5-ID-Tags.htm and it checks out.
The guy that posted that claims to have an AWD T5 Astro. Im going to join the site and see if he can clear anything up. Do you have any sources of what you can get the 23 and 27 spline transfer cases out of? Are some tailhousings different lengths? this might allow another to be mounted to change the amount of exposed tailshaft.

I may have figured out how to set up my inboard brakes but im not sure if mounting the rotor would weaken the part of the halfshaft to the point of failing to handle the forces applied by the brakes. Im going to take a few measurements but does anyone have any suggestions on testing methods for the movement of the differential stub in the housing. Ive got a spare differential that might work for the front. Ive got the suspicion that i would need a bolt in stub shaft to be sturdy enough to not cause issues with the calipers dragging. any suggestions on a possible candidate for that?

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PostPosted: March 23, 2015, 4:04 pm 
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gregk wrote:
Aetro wrote:
BW4472 transfer case(rated 500ft/lb tq)(1/3 power to front and mechanical)


You are mistaken.

The BW4472 has a viscous coupling and a 33F/66R torque split in it's original orientation. Once you flip the drivetrain back to front it's a 66F/33R split in a substantially rear-heavy car, and if your second hand transfer case has a worn out viscous coupling you'll essentially have a mid engined FWD car.

You aren't going to get the results you want without a custom transfer case.

Aetro wrote:
a european model like the ford RS200 that i can afford and then part out...


Just FYI, an RS200 is a $150k+ car.

Aetro wrote:
I considered ditching the inboard brakes but then i wouldnt require the AWD


This makes it sound like you really only want awd so that you can use the front axles for inboard brakes. Is this correct?


1. the engine would still be oriented in the normal direction, it would just have a longer front driveshaft and little to no rear drive shaft.
2. I know they are crazy expensive i was being sarcastic :cheers:
3. The inboard brakes just have such a huge advantage over outboard brakes that im willing to at least try to figure out how to make them work, and since that would require front halfshafts it is a good match for an AWD car. On top of that ive been driving awd sports cars for the last 10 years and just cant justify spending the money for a audi R8. i sold the evo idea to the wife with the matching Recaro carseat and the "its a rally car, they slide through the forest sideways at 100mph, its bound to be safe" lol. Well that and she loves my talon.

The 93 S10 2.8 4x4 has a WC T5 # 1352-222. it also has a 27 spline mainshaft, It was a crossover year so its got a unique combination of parts. gregk since your the resident expert on t5's why did you decide that transmission wouldnt be suitable? Its on the weak side for a t5, but is that the only limiting factor? the input shaft might need a interesting clutch and bellhousing solution, but those are both relatively easy to deal with.

What is the oppinion on the NV3500 for connecting to the BW4472? Ive read that it works with minimal modifications, but i havnt been able to find out much about this combo

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PostPosted: March 23, 2015, 6:17 pm 
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Aetro wrote:
1. the engine would still be oriented in the normal direction, it would just have a longer front driveshaft and little to no rear drive shaft

Ah, I never considered that you might be talking about that. You do realize that such a car would be enormous right? You're talking ~130" wheelbase, that's Chevy Suburban territory.


Aetro wrote:
3. The inboard brakes just have such a huge advantage over outboard brakes that im willing to at least try to figure out how to make them work, and since that would require front halfshafts it is a good match for an AWD car.

I assume you're more concerned with improving mechanical grip than ride comfort. Bear in mind that reducing overall weight also improves mechanical grip, and the Subaru powered alternative concept you mentioned earlier will be significantly lighter. IMO, the short wheelbase RWD H4 will go around corners better with outboard brakes than the extra-long AWD V8 with inboard brakes (as well as being faster in a straight line).


Aetro wrote:
gregk since your the resident expert on t5's

You have me mistaken for someone else.


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PostPosted: March 24, 2015, 5:13 pm 
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It will be unusually long, but i hope that will help move the most weight closer to the center and the polar moment of inertia will be better. The local roadcourse is where ill be taking it for the most part, so a longer wheelbase should help with stability at higher speeds. The picture in my head has it proportioned like a le mans prototype.
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/aud-le-mans-prototypes-lightness-through-carbon-fiber_100428201_l.jpg
http://www.0-60mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/1999-TOYOTA-GT1-TS-020-LE-MANS.jpg

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PostPosted: March 24, 2015, 6:55 pm 
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Aetro wrote:
It will be unusually long, but i hope that will help move the most weight closer to the center and the polar moment of inertia will be better. The local roadcourse is where ill be taking it for the most part, so a longer wheelbase should help with stability at higher speeds. The picture in my head has it proportioned like a le mans prototype.
http://images.thecarconnection.com/lrg/aud-le-mans-prototypes-lightness-through-carbon-fiber_100428201_l.jpg
http://www.0-60mag.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/1999-TOYOTA-GT1-TS-020-LE-MANS.jpg


It will be substantially longer than an LMP car. Tack on a transfer case, driveshaft, and differential to the rear of that thing and throw an axle out in front of your feet as well since you want AWD.

How do you plan to shift this thing?

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