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PostPosted: March 24, 2015, 8:37 pm 
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Aetro wrote:
It will be unusually long, but i hope that will help move the most weight closer to the center and the polar moment of inertia will be better.

You'll actually be increasing the polar moment of inertia, as you're moving the rear axle components further from the Cg. But by increasing the distance between the contact patches and the Cg you increase the amount of yaw moment the tires can exert. In terms of yaw acceleration the longer wheelbase tends to come out ahead, within reason.


anavrinIV wrote:
It will be substantially longer than an LMP car.

Just for reference, that Audi has a wheelbase of 3016mm (118.7"), and the Toyota is a miniscule 2850mm (112.2").

I'll stand by my earlier guesstimate of ~130" though that's near the optimistic end of the realm of possibility. Still, he said "proportion" which just means that the roof will be 3"-4" taller which isn't a bad thing on a street driven car (the driver in an R18 can barely see over the wheel fairings). The only thing is, it's going to need very large wheels (19" or 20") to stay proportionate to an LMP1, 18" would be iffy and anything smaller would just look ridiculous. That means very expensive tires.


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PostPosted: March 27, 2015, 5:24 pm 
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I hadnt thought about how it would look with my 17" wheels being so long, Ill keep that in mind. Most of this car will be put together with the idea of easily accessed parts out of a junkyard, so if the parts require a 130" wheelbase while undesirable may be unavoidable. Ill do what i can to minimize it and compensate for it (more steering angle/chassis reinforcement/placing front drivetrain under raised legs).
Right now im figuring out what parts i plan on using with a general idea of layout. The next stage is an initial design, and if things dont look good ill have to go back and try new to find different parts.
Looking more in depth i think i understand what greg was saying about the splines being too short but i havnt been able to find any measurements as to how much too short they were. Ive found the camaro mainshaft is 1/2 inch longer than the S10 and still a 27 spline count. The clocking of the trans with the camaro bellhousing will also negate the angling of the transfer case allowing a lower mounting positioning of everything. I dont know if that 1/2 inch will be enough to mate to the 4472 but thats the plan at the moment. if it doesnt fit ill make the initial design with just the camaro 5.0 and t5 but design it around the measurements of a ls1/t56/Bw4472 combo and upgrade to that at a latter time.

I plan on using shift cables to fab up a remote shifting setup, but ill have to have the trans before i can figure out what kind of mechanism would work.

thanks for all the help finding possible issues, better to figure them out now than latter.

WC t5 with non-wc tailhousing swap
http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/t5-tailshaft-swap-for-dummies-with-pictures.280529/

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PostPosted: March 28, 2015, 10:34 am 
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I just ran into the Ken Block video GymKhana 7 yesterday. If his Mustang is your model (generally speaking), you're going to have a wild ride if you can get it to go. I'll have to see if I can find some info on his car in terms of running gear, chassis layout, etc.

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PostPosted: March 28, 2015, 8:19 pm 
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Aetro wrote:


Where it says in two separate exchanges on page two that it can't be done. I will check into that one year only S10, but I'd have thought between Paul Giovanni (sp?) the Mincie guy, and G-force, *and* my contact at Rockland, they'd have heard of it...

One source for 23 spline transfer cases is AMC Eagle.

Novak has good FAQ's on Tcases.

As far as the overall layout, that was used by the HTT Pléthore, so you can google them. RWD, though, so add the length of the transfer case.
Yes, a long car, and don't think you can shorten it more than a half dozen inches...and the t-case is going to add 10-12"

I think to even get that you have to start looking at what short engines you can use as an alternative. If it's light, the new v6 derivative of the LS is cool. VW W8? (I think it come in RWD/longitudinal. At least look into the FWD transverse edition of the LS... shorter enough to be worth converting back to RWD/longitudinal? IDK


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PostPosted: March 30, 2015, 1:50 am 
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iadr wrote:
Aetro wrote:


Where it says in two separate exchanges on page two that it can't be done. I will check into that one year only S10, but I'd have thought between Paul Giovanni (sp?) the Mincie guy, and G-force, *and* my contact at Rockland, they'd have heard of it...

One source for 23 spline transfer cases is AMC Eagle.

Novak has good FAQ's on Tcases.

As far as the overall layout, that was used by the HTT Pléthore, so you can google them. RWD, though, so add the length of the transfer case.
Yes, a long car, and don't think you can shorten it more than a half dozen inches...and the t-case is going to add 10-12"

I think to even get that you have to start looking at what short engines you can use as an alternative. If it's light, the new v6 derivative of the LS is cool. VW W8? (I think it come in RWD/longitudinal. At least look into the FWD transverse edition of the LS... shorter enough to be worth converting back to RWD/longitudinal? IDK


Ill look into those thanks for the tip.

What exactly was said about it not being doable? I looked on page 2 and only found 2 references about trying to turn a s10 4x4 trans back to 2wd, someone pointed out that he would have to swap mainshafts for it to work.
another about swaping a NWC mainshaft and tailhousing from a jeep into a WC Mustang T5. I didnt see anything that would imply the product of the walkthrough would have issues.

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PostPosted: March 30, 2015, 2:54 am 
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Above should have said Paul Cangialosi the Muncie guy. Didn't proof read and got his name wrong.

Yes, you have to change out the main shaft, except there isn't a WC short mainshaft for the short 4X4 tailhousing.


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PostPosted: March 30, 2015, 3:06 am 
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iadr wrote:
Above should have said Paul Cangialosi the Muncie guy. Didn't proof read and got his name wrong.

Yes, you have to change out the main shaft, except there isn't a WC short mainshaft for the short 4X4 tailhousing.


So the 4472 wont fit because the camaro mainshaft is too long? this whole time ive been thinking the opposite, ill run back through my references ive dug up with this in mind. that would make the camaro mainshaft 1/2" too long. thanks because i havnt been able to scrounge up any measurements for them.

[edit] Just checked and the 2wd is the one thats 1/2" shorter. the 4x4 is 5 3/4" shorter. a bit more of a difference, lol

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PostPosted: March 30, 2015, 5:14 am 
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Well, hopes officially dashed. just found that the WC t5 in the 93 s10 never came with 4 wheel drive. they used the 4.3 and NV3500 for all of them. So the option of using the nv3500 is still available as i know they can be mated, but that trans is less than ideal. Ill talk to a friend of mine with a machine shop about cutting down and resplining a longer mainshaft, but thats bound to be really expensive if its even an possible.

Another option is to use a smaller engine with a non-world class trans. Keeping the weight below 2k with an engine that makes 150-200ft/lbs should keep it from stripping gears. ill look into other engine options, recommendations are welcome, but im trying to keep the wiring to a minimum since i hate electrical problems. this would only be a temporary setup until the expensive LSsomething/t56 combo could be afforded

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PostPosted: March 31, 2015, 11:03 pm 
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A few notes on your original post:

95" WB not happening in a midi without a repurposed fwd setup or long. transaxle

Check this front engine setup:http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/1908857-custom-divorced-borg-warner.html

Go with a moderately off the shelf solution when possible or something proven in other builds:

Save yourself the trouble and use the brakes from your donor spindles, if this project has any prospect of completion you need to keep it simple and minimize any unnecessary adapting, you can always upgrade to lighter calipers later.

Same with driveshafts, use the donor unit ujoints, custom shafts, again, keep the diff/tc in the same family and you can use a single setup and just cut the lengths for your needs (I'm investigating the exploder awd tcase, 8.8s front/rear, off the shelf ffr rear axles/moser cut cv shafts on the front, mark williams will cut your rear hubs for those axles-thats what i did for my miata v8)

245 tires overkill for 300 hp awd

t5 is light, cheap, and gears are available for high hp


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PostPosted: April 1, 2015, 2:11 pm 
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tigris wrote:
A few notes on your original post:

95" WB not happening in a midi without a repurposed fwd setup or long. transaxle

Check this front engine setup:http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/ford/1908857-custom-divorced-borg-warner.html

Go with a moderately off the shelf solution when possible or something proven in other builds:

Save yourself the trouble and use the brakes from your donor spindles, if this project has any prospect of completion you need to keep it simple and minimize any unnecessary adapting, you can always upgrade to lighter calipers later.

Same with driveshafts, use the donor unit ujoints, custom shafts, again, keep the diff/tc in the same family and you can use a single setup and just cut the lengths for your needs (I'm investigating the exploder awd tcase, 8.8s front/rear, off the shelf ffr rear axles/moser cut cv shafts on the front, mark williams will cut your rear hubs for those axles-thats what i did for my miata v8)

245 tires overkill for 300 hp awd

t5 is light, cheap, and gears are available for high hp


Lol, yeah, the original 95" WB was more than a little optimistic now that ive got some measurements. At the moment im looking into a couple of options (im looking at your link now) and i think im going to do something in the 150-200hp range for the original build but still making provisions for a larger and longer powertrain combination for upgradability.

Im actually looking at the 8.8 diffs, but the awd explorer transfer case wont work for my needs. Halfshafts are easy for me to figure out if i go with my mitsubishi differentials because im most familiar with mitsu parts. but audi halfshafts need to be looked into, because i might be able to use the whole diff to hub portion and save some effort.
Im going for the 245's because i already have some spare wheels for that size and it will be going to a local roadcourse.
T5 is exactly what ive been trying to figure out, but besides fabing up a custom extension housing to match up with the excessively long mainshaft(again adding more wheelbase) the only option is having a 4x4 length mainshaft built(which may actually be a possibility surprisingly, hopefully it pans out) but its going to be expensive.

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PostPosted: April 2, 2015, 7:06 am 
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Greg, are you friends with people from one of those shops? or have you just worked with them alot? My thoughts are that since aftermarket high strength mainshafts are available I wonder what would be involved in making a shorter verion 4x4 length mainshaft, or at the very least consider a group buy of some sort. I mean, if you google 5-speed awd just about everyone has tried to figure out how to get a transfer case on a WC t5.
I think just the cyclone/typhoon and s-10 community alone would buy these up, not to mention here and the offroading community. it would fill a niche for people who dont need or cant afford a t56.
If you think its worth looking into pass along the idea and let us know what they think. I sent pro-force performance an e-mail yesterday, but i think ill call him this afternoon to see what he says.

Crazy idea, but what if the extra 5-6 inches of mainshaft could be made to replace the input shaft of the transfer case? its a long chance, but does anyone have any measurements?

[edit]
I sent emails to g-force, astro performance, and Paul Cangialosi about making a shorter mainshaft. So well see what i hear back from them. Would anyone be interested in a group buy if they can supply them?

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PostPosted: April 5, 2015, 11:35 am 
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Well the first response i got back with a price and production numbers was from Tony at Astro performance. He said minimum production is 35 units and they would be $400 each. Thats even with the harder 9310 grade steel alloy he uses. Production time he gave was 90 to 120 days with a 30% down payment and full payment plus shipping before delivery. Now i think thats a hell of a deal, but finding 35 people who want to do this is going to be the hard part since everyone on the internet knows it cant be done and the tranmissions wont take the abuse. With the upgraded gears mainshaft and other goodies from astro the t5 is rated at 575ft/lbs of torque and 650hp. Those are actual numbers posted by Pro-force performance for their A-5 rebuild.

This is the transmission i found that led down this most recent path of possible solutions
http://pro-forceperformance.com/astro_a-5.htm

Im still waiting on Paul Cangialosi from 5speeds to get back to me with some numbers, but its Easter weekend and i didnt send my second email till friday morning. He did say he could make them as well, but i believe he uses the same grade steel as the factory mainshafts. So they would be easier to produce, and that would mean less $$$.

Illl keep everyone updated and if anyone is interested in this let me know and ill be sure to keep in contact with you.

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PostPosted: April 5, 2015, 11:49 am 
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Aetro wrote:
... but finding 35 people who want to do this is going to be the hard part since everyone on the internet knows it cant be done...

No, finding 35 people who say it's a great idea is easy. On the other hand, getting money out of them will be near impossible given how few would bother to turn off their TV and actually go build something. People are all for big projects as long as it's not their money.

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PostPosted: April 5, 2015, 4:45 pm 
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KB58 wrote:
Aetro wrote:
... but finding 35 people who want to do this is going to be the hard part since everyone on the internet knows it cant be done...

No, finding 35 people who say it's a great idea is easy. On the other hand, getting money out of them will be near impossible given how few would bother to turn off their TV and actually go build something. People are all for big projects as long as it's not their money.


Yeah, im not even starting a groupbuy thread yet because if one of the other 2 companies are able to make a single mainshaft it would probably be worth the saved effort and headache even at a higher price.

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PostPosted: April 6, 2015, 3:37 pm 
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You are covering ground that I have mentally covered before... I too would like to have reliable V8 power, great traction, mechanically durable components, and light weight in a streetable package (the holy grail of automobiles!) I haven't figured out how to make it work out. Hoping maybe you can. Here are a few of my thoughts:

I doubt that the Syclone and Typhoon guys will be interested in any T5 hardware. They kill well-built 700R4 automatics with stock and mildly modified Sy's and Ty's. I don't think the T5 will be an improvement for them, since the T5 is probably weaker than what they have and you loose boost while shifting (no load = reduced boost). Swapping to 4L80E's was a big deal a couple years ago (basically the Turbo 400 with overdrive) and 32 spline conversions for the BW4472. AWD + (V8 or turbo V6 power) + traction + full weight Sy or Ty = broken transmissions. The BW4472 will stand up to well north of 800 hp (what horsepower does it take to push a full weight Sy into the 8's on street tires?) but most times the trans won't.

The T56 is available as a 4wd trans from Rockland (I believe they're the only ones at this point). You could do it DIY by starting with a C5 or C6 T56, creating a tcase adapter, and converting the trans to mid shift (not sure if the conversion kit is still available).

But, I think you've identified the Achilles heel of this type of arrangement: The powertrain is really long. BB69 has a custom application that is similar (LS motor to (formerly) C5 auto (now Muncie 4spd) to C5 diff) and it is a pretty long wheelbase without any transfercase and with all the parts close coupled (no driveshaft). Add the tcase and you're way out there. Search for him and you'll find his beast.

If you went front engine AWD, then you have weight bias issues, potentially, and your driver and passenger spaces have to share room with drivetrain parts. Probably gets kinda snug.

Flipping the drivetrain around (flywheel forward) fixes a bunch of problems (drivetrain length for one) but introduces another couple problems, mainly 1.) the drivetrain runs the wrong direction (requiring flipped diffs or similar) and 2.) the BW4472 is 35%F / 65%R split, which when flipped puts the majority of the power at the wrong end. Obviously, both of these are things that would take a bunch of engineering & manufacturing time to rectify (not easy, cheap, or fast).

JustDreamin


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