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I've had a few weeks now to assess my experience at the 24 hours of LeMons, and I wanted to share a few thoughts to get some validation that I'm not some freak.

Let me preface by saying that I've never autocrossed or driven on a closed course at speed, so naturally I decided to go wheel-to-wheel with 94 other cars for my first racing experience. I only got 40 minutes behind the wheel before mechanical failures and team politics ended my race. I'm a huge fan of endurance racing. The ALMS is my favorite sport to follow.

I have to say that I really didn't enjoy it like I hoped I would. I left the weekend thinking that if I never went wheel-to-wheel again I'd be just fine. I feel this way for a number of different reasons:

1. Even though it's a $500 piece of ****, I'd worked far too hard on the car to risk damaging it in a racing accident. I don't have the confidence in my skills or emotional detachment from my equipment to risk it in that fashion. I imagine when the locost is done I'll feel a million times more strongly in this regard.

2. I just like driving fast. I could care less how I finish against other (much more talented) drivers in superior machinery. I had the most fun when I just said "to hell with racing" and treated it like an HPDE. I'd see some guy come smoking up my tail and I'd just wave him by. That made several other drivers happy and my teammates a little steamed. Still, I knew the best way to wad up the car and end two teams' weekend was to try and race a superior car/driver into a corner on will power alone.

3. I felt trapped in the car. My fault for not taking a spin around the block with a helmet on. When strapped into a car with (already) poor rearward visibility, 5 point belts, a full-face helmet and a neck brace I felt like I was driving blind. Not a fun way to spend time behind the wheel. It took me most of my 40 minutes to learn how to use my mirrors to avoid turning into another car dive-bombing the corner on my inside.

4. I understand the whole "slow car fast" mentality, but driving that Merkur really sucked. Call me spoiled for driving a Miata every day.

5. I felt there was little to no opportunity to actually drive a "correct" line. In LeMons, the correct line is whichever one doesn't get you hit when 4 cars try and occupy the same space at the same time. There was no consistency in my lap times mostly because I was working overtime to try and avoid other drivers who cared less about penalties and crumpled sheet metal.

I'm sure all of my issues would be solved by more seat time, but at this point I'm not interested in spending the money to find out. After this experience I can definitely tell autocrossing is much more my speed, and that at most I'd just like the opportunity to drive the locost at 8.5/10ths on a road course. All in all a very valuable lesson as I kick off the design stage of my build.

Moving forward I feel good designing the car as a 98% road car. I'm also planning on hitting a couple of SCCA autocross events in my Miata before I sell her at the end of the year.

I just wanted some feedback to make sure I'm not weird. All in all I had a good time at LeMons, and I think the organizers run a spectacular event. I feel though, that I'm not cut from the right cloth to enjoy it like others do.

Though I've never gone wheel-to-wheel racing, you pretty much listed all my reasons for not wanting to participate. I feel a $10 plastic trophy - and Monday bragging to coworkers who don't care - isn't worth causing $$$ damage to other cars in order to win. But that's just me. OTOH I love trackday events.

I forgot to mention the one reason I was glad I drove. I really liked talking to other drivers about racing. It was fun walking to the other camps and talking about the track, experiences, etc.

Reminds me of a story I read about a paratrooper who HATED parachuting. When asked why he joined Airborne, he replied "because I like being around guys who like to jump out of airplanes."

One more positive so I don't sound all sour-grapes.

I'll never again watch racing the same way again. Seeing an F1 driver race another car in the rain, a NASCAR driver negotiating traffic, or a LeMans team go fast for 24 hours will always have a new meaning when I think about how intense and hard it was to try to go flat-out in traffic for 40 minutes in a crapcan racer.

I think lemons is the wrong first w2w experience, but than again I don't have w2w experience as well.
I have been driving with the most advanced groups in local track days though for quite some time, and while these groups are definitely MUCH more intimidating than your average HPDE, I seem to cope with it just fine.

Moti

I dont know if a LeMons race is an appropriate first race experience. I think the biggest problem you had (besides lacking seat time) is that most of those cars are fully expected to NOT make it back from that weekend, especially with the penalties that can be incurred by the judges. Hence the 500 dollar budget.

But even in HPDE or driving schools you'll find some of the same complaints in 5. I had a guy in an S2k CR that would always take a very wrong line in a turn at the local track. That line had him MUCH faster into the turn but almost at a dead stop at exit.... and if you actually tried to hit the proper line/apex like I did when he was behind you.... he would have T-boned you. I almost had to take 4 wheel excursion to avoid that.

On a related note, I personally think you'd have to suicidal to bring a 7/Locost to a wheel to wheel race, nevermind a quasi-demolition derby like LeMons. Unless its got one helluva cage and even they you'd still be crazy in my book.

That's what I was going to say, that bringing any car to a $500-car-value race is just asking to be treated as a bumper car. I wouldn't say that's a good example of true WTW racing.

Well written!

Very well expressed.

As Spock once said, "having something is not as good as wanting it," or something like that

Diving into the deep end is not the way to learn how to swim.
I am not surprised that you did not enjoy it as much as you had hoped and expected to.

I completely agree with your assessment though. I have raced wheel to wheel and while enjoying it, winning is not that important to me in any type of competition as I just enjoy the game. But I care too much about my equipment and my life to risk taking chances. I recommend autocross for the challenge, and track days for the thrill of speed.

The LeMons race is a great idea but it seems to me that you need to have more of a "Demolition Derby" attitude to really enjoy it.

I believe vintage racing would be very much my ideal racing as winning is not usually the main thing and everyone cares about their cars. You might enjoy watching a couple events or even volunteering to be a corner worker. The vintage/historic race people have a great time driving very neat cars without the "win or crash" attitude that dominates all forms of racing. Check it out!

There are all types of "Racers" and you may well be one, but not in a LeMons race, and not with a team that has a different goal. Some people love the crowded race track with constant passing and blocking, others of us like to get a good flow around a track at speed. You may well be a better, faster racer than the rest of your team but you were not ready for that race is all.

Learn how to swim first, and then work your way up to where you are enjoying it even more than you had hoped.
And stay off the high diving board until you are ready!

I took the "intro to racing" class offered at the event, and they stressed that it was always the experienced guys who caused wrecks. The reason was that at LeMons people don't take the "expected" line through corners. Despite having zero experience I fell like I was taking a pretty good line through the corners. Mid-corner evasive action was the norm when I was trying to do it in traffic.

I agree with you folks above that it probably isn't the best example of w2w racing. I like the idea of historic racing, but I imagine there are those who will ruin that too. I still feel though that I fall pretty squarely on the fabricator end of the racer-fabricator spectrum. The car has always been the star for me.

I don't want my comments to be an indictment of w2w racing or those who pursue it. To each his own, and I'm thankful for those who choose to do it. I'm a lifelong racing fan and I just wanted to share some experiences of crossing the line from spectator to driver.

On another note, I can definitely see the value of in-car data acquisition, especially when track time is limited. I had no idea if anything I was doing was affecting my lap times. In fact, I didn't get lap times until a week and a half after the event. Having a readout on the dash or a crew member calling out lap times would be a lot more helpful and a heck of a lot more fun.

It doesn't sound like an ideal first W2W experience, in fact I'm a litttle suprised they even allow drivers with no experience. I haven't actually raced W2W in cars either, and I don't have an plans to (surely not in a locost), but I have done some track days in street cars and I also race karts (where the stakes are somewhat lower). As much fun as I have chasing down another car on a track day and having him point me by it is much more rewarding to catch up and then have to find a way to actually pass someone. I'm with you though that the fun is just in driving fast and getting the best out of the machine, for me the competetive side is more in the design/build part. Driving in a spec series wouldn't be nearly as interesting to me as racing FSAE cars (about as far from spec as you can get I think) or even comparing drag times of a car I built/modded/tuned to others.

I was once told "don't race a car you can't afford to drive off a cliff" and while I don't think that's going to be a problem with a $500 car it does put into perspective what can and does happen on the track. Like others have said this sounds more like a demolition derby than a race. There's always the opportunity to pass for someone who wants to risk it all and with the car values so low I can see where the kamikaze drivers would seem to be coming out of the woodwork. You won't be at your fastest unless you are comfortable (physically ad mentally) that's where the whole thing about trusting the drivers around you comes into play. Thankfully "racing" takes many forms and we can all find something that suits us.

Lemons is the wrong place for your W2W baptism by fire. You need to be comfortable in and confident of the car which you weren't. You need to have the experience of knowing the limitations of the car, braking points, handling quirks, etc. Lastly and most importantly you have to know how to drive with and evaluate other racers. It's important to learn all you can about the drivers you're racing against. I'm hardly an old sage, but I've done enough W2W racing in SCCA to learn a few things. Amatuer drivers are a lot like a bunch of first graders. Some are bullies and try to push you around through intimidation. They'll put you in positions where somebody's gotta give or someone's going off and they hope (and outright gamble at times) you'll back down. Once you do, that's how they will treat you every time they encounter you. Stand your ground/hold your line and punt them off the track (if it comes to that) and they will be far less likely to try that approach the next time. Most "bullies" figure out who they can and can't intimidate and then will actually race you somewhat clean once they figure out you aren't going to give them something just because they put you in a squeeze or an uneasy position. These guys can sense weakness and exploit it. They are entertaining to follow at times since you can watch them badger other drivers and by how those drivers react you can learn about them as well.

The next catagory of racing scourges are the "Squirrels" who can be as dangerous or more than the aforementioned punks. Squirrel drivers are just like the real ones who dart out of the bushes in front of your road car. You hit them more often than not because you have no clue what their next move is going to be, but usually it is completely illogical and takes you by suprise. These are usually young/inexperienced folks who refuse to hold a line or race the track the way everyone else does. You can think of them as the hyper first graders who refuse to take their Ritilan. They are always scary to overtake.

Most of the other drivers are just like you and I. Some are nursing bad brakes, old tires, busted trannies, etc. so their character can change with their car, but I always keep a log in my head of car numbers and try and remember how those guys race. But for the most part they all want to play by the rules and go to the front without breaking anything or making any enemies. It takes time and experience to learn good racecraft, and to learn to evaluate the racecraft of others to spot weaknesses or potential hazards.

I wouldn't swear it off yet if I were you, just give yourself some time to get more comfortable out there before you jump back into it. And don't be ashamed of waving someone by if they are clearly faster and are in a podium spot or racing for one. (or if that cornerworker is pionting that blue flag at you ) Otherwise race the cars trying to overtake you, that's how you learn and get better. You may someday find you're a racer yet!

Edit- I just saw it was at CMP. That's a helluva tight track for 42 LEMONS! Hope your left front tire held up better there than mine did!

A lot of the guys I've autocrossed with have now moved on to Solo I and Hillclimbs. When I was building the 7 and even still today, they all are trying to get me to bring the 7 out. Especially to Knox Mountain Hillclimb right here in my home town.

The thing it, like you, I have too much sweat equity into the car. If I put it off into a tree, assuming I don't end up trying to sip-and-puff myself into an oncoming bus later, I'm going to be very sad.

Basically, I'm ready to go hillclimbing with my 7 when I'm ready to walk away from its smouldering remains at the bottom of a ravine. Until then, I'll sit in the car show, thanks.

Solo I would be fine, as long as John Q Idiot doesn't lose it and hit me. Then again in Solo I, they shouldn't even be close enough to do that.

I would seriously consider doing it a used beat up old race car. With a tin top. And doors......

Chet - we raced the west course at CMP. It's about 0.9 miles and it was stuffed with 94 cars, not 42. By the time our weekend was over our left front was absolutely shredded.

The idea that LeMons cars are only $500 is a total myth. By the time we had safety gear in our car and had applied some legal and not-so-legal modifications* the total was somewhere well north of $2k. Not to mention that I'd worked on it 1-2 nights a week (and some weekends) for 3 months.

The guys in the paddock next to us raced Factory Five challenge cars. This was a light weekend for them. They seemed to be the norm, not the exception. For guys with that kind of hobby, a couple of grand is chump change.

Great info, all. I appreciate all of you experienced guys chiming in. That's exactly why I brought the whole thing up. A few of my closing thoughts so this thread doesn't forever...

All this banter has made me realize that it was a good bit of fun to participate and a good intro into the realities of racing. I agree with all that it was certainly not the best w2w forum to start out my motorsports "career". I used to wonder why the blokes in GRM went through so much trouble and time to get a competition license. I realize now that just because some organizing body will sell you one for $75 doesn't mean that you can just go w2w.

I can certainly see how this sort of thing would be a lot of fun in the right circumstances and with the right people. When I saw the Tanners go to the Targa Newfoundland I knew that was something I had to do one day. I still feel that that is something worth working up to. I think though, at this point in my life I just need to concentrate on the Spartan, play with my daughter and leave the road racing for a later point in life when the money and time are a little more free-flowing.

*Nearly every team I'd talked to had rebuilt their engine, like us. We'd also bought half a parts car (unsuccessfully) trying to figure out why it wouldn't rev past 4k.

Don't give up yet! You just got a little over your head for the fist big event, it can be overwhelming even at an easy event. By my memory, I think your an east coast guy and you might want to look at events at Summit Point by EMRA or perhaps others that have much more low key wheel to wheel stuff.



OMG, that's more of a WW1 dogfight then a race. Not really applicable to anything else you'll run into, it's a weird introduction.

Don't give up yet, you owe yourself a better experience at this point. It isn't normal to get very physical with other cars, especially as the cars get faster.

SkinnyG, Get yourself to that hillclimb. You won't regret it, it's up to you wether you go off course or hit something. It really shouldn't happen during the first events, unless you just haven't driven the car at speed yet ( which you have ). I'll admit I racked up my FF at a hillclimb, and it really was not a pleasant experience. But I had been running that hill for years and felt it was time to try and post some times that would be really good. I just tried too hard and that can certainly be avoided.

I encourage you both to keep at it. You will never regret it, you will regret not doing yet.

Have you looked into trying to get out with your local vintage racing group? While you might get some "It's not a real Lotus..." attitude, vintage groups tend to be pretty picky about how drivers behave when on the track. Most have 13/13 rules (first "incident" means 13 months of probation, second "incident" and you're out) and overall I find the participants to be really good guys. They all have cars they don't want to wreck and many of them will have just as much of their own labor into what they are racing as you will.

It's a friendly environment that can make for a fun weekend of racing. I wouldn't recommend vintage racing to anyone who heads to the track with strong desire to win (unless you're prepared to find the right period hardware), but it's a chance to get out and experience w2w in about the most gentlemanly manner possible.