LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently March 29, 2024, 12:50 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: August 3, 2008, 4:24 pm 
Offline

Joined: July 17, 2007, 12:09 am
Posts: 687
So the brakes work great on the car, but they require just a TON of force. I still have not been able to lock any of them up even when putting all my weight on the pedal. The car stops so fast the blood rushes into my eye balls, but my leg cramps after I do it and I have to sit there for my muscle to relax.

Also the petal is ROCK SOLID firm. It doesn't move very much at all. If I wanted to make the pedal more sensitive and take less force would I get a larger master cylinder or smaller?

J. R.

_________________
Attention TURBO LOVERS, Great book -----> How to turbocharge and Tune your Engine
Sold: GT30/71R My00 S2k
My Car: Custom Build Lotus Super 7


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: August 3, 2008, 4:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: August 15, 2005, 10:13 pm
Posts: 7043
Location: Charleston, WV
Based on the technical mumbo-jumbo I included below I would say smaller. :wink:

Quote:
This is the html version of the file http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/Pedal ... -Guide.pdf.
Google automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web.
Page 1
Brake Pedal Setup and Dual Master Cylinder Installation Guide By Steve Ruiz, Engineering Manager of StopTech, ©2005Overview The conversion of a brake system from a typical, factory-supplied, vacuum-boosted (vacuum assisted) tandem master cylinder to a racing-style dual master cylinder requires that theassisting force originally provided by the booster be replaced by an increase in the mechanicalleverage in the pedal assembly and/or an increase in the piston area differential between the master cylinder (connected to the pedal lever) and the brake caliper piston or pistons.If all the assisted force were made up by mechanical leverage in the pedal assembly it is likelythat the pedal throw would be too long before substantial brake work would begin. If the pedalratio is less than required to generate the required force, then either the master cylinder diameter will have to be reduced or the brake caliper piston sizes will have to be increased toput in place a hydraulic system ratio advantage to make up the difference. A combination of all three is usually employed to compensate for lack of assisting force.Brake Pedal Design and SelectionFirst, let’s define the term pedal ratio. The pedal ratio is the overall pedal length or distancefrom the pedal pivot called the fulcrum to center of the pad your foot will push against (L1+L2) divided by the distance from to the fulcrum to the master cylinder push rod attachment point (L1). Experience has shown that a pedal ratio of 6.2:1 is recommended (with 5.5:1 being therecommended minimum) to replace most of the brake force assist that was provided originallyby the vacuum assist and the original equipment pedal ratio of 3.5 to 4.0:1. This means that you cannot usually reuse the original equipment pedal to build a pedal arrangement with dualmaster cylinders because the stock pedal is simply not long enough and often the fulcrum istoo low to the floor to provide enough room to make the brake pedal longer. Shortening the distance from the fulcrum to the pushrod would have the same effect, but is a difficult task best left to an expert fabricator. Without this extra mechanical advantage, youwould have to use a smaller master cylinder than may be available or you are at least setting yourself up for a difficult time in picking other system components to make up for the missing mechanical advantage. There are many well-designed and manufactured pedal arrangements with dual master cylinders available from race component suppliers. If you still choose tofabricate your own assembly then take care to design and build a sound pedal.Fulcrum MasterCylinderPushrod Attachment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 2
Balance Considerations A common mistake is to undersize the rear circuit pressure or caliper piston size causing anincurable front bias. Starting out with a slightly greater rear bias will give you options to set the balance to the desired level. The rear bias can be resolved by resetting the balance in the dual master cylinder array more to the front (using the balance bar) or, in the case of atandem master cylinder, using what is commonly referred to as a brake-proportioning valve. The name brake proportioning valve is misleading and seems to imply a change in the ratio offorce between the front and rear circuits. This is, in fact, not the case – the valve is actually a pressure-regulating device. As you change the screw or cam adjustment on the valve, a preloaded spring is relaxed or compressed, pushing against a piston that is schematicallyconnected in a tee or in parallel or as shown below in a more elaborate arrangement. When the pressure in the circuit that the valve is connected to reaches a point where the resultant force exerted by the piston matches the spring preload, the piston lifts off of its seat and acts like an accumulator or a control valve as shown.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 3
Any further increase in pressure is at a rate that equals the (relatively low) spring rate. On agraph showing pressure plotted against pedal force in the circuit that the valve is installed in, you will see a linear rise or slope up to the preset pressure (knee point) and then a sharp transition to a different slower rise rate or slope. Due to the design of this valve, it should never be used on the front circuit because force output on the front should always directly respond to driver input without any limitation.If too much mechanical advantage exists over the front brakes (in other words the frontbrakes are too easy to lock up), then one should consider resizing the brake caliper piston size(s) downward to reduce force output or, in the case of dual master cylinders, resize thefront master cylinder piston size upward. In the case that you must use a tandem master cylinder with a stock-like pedal arrangementfor whatever reason, make sure that your selected master cylinder and the brake caliper piston sizes for both the front and rear circuits are correct. You will have less than the bestpossible brake performance by depending on proportioning valves discussed to correct for thewrong brake system component sizes being used. These valves are best used at or near their maximum installed spring preload on cars with tandem master cylinders with a full load of fuel(presuming the fuel is carried in the back) and on a wet track because the balance will bemore biased to the rear under wet conditions due to lower weight transfer. Master Cylinder Selection In general, if you have a pedal ratio of approximately 6.2:1 then it is likely that a 3/4 inch(0.750 inch or 19 mm) master cylinder will be close to the right size when combined with a front 4-piston caliper with piston sizes of 38mm and 42mm and a tire with a 24.4 inch outer diameter (such as a commonly used tire size 245/40R17).It is possible to calculate the master cylinder sizes with relative precision, but you will needthe following data, in either metric or English units:1. Static weight on the front axle 2. Static weight on the rear axle3. Maximum deceleration rate expected (typically between 1.0 to 1.5g for sedan or sports cars, unitless)4. Center of gravity height (go online to learn methods of determining using cornerweight scales)5. Wheelbase
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 4
6. Tire rolling diameter (you can use the tire diameter)7. Brake caliper piston sizes front and rear, converted to total piston area (piston area = diameter of each piston squared, then divided by 4, then multiplied by π, or 3.142)8. Effective radius of the brakes front and rear, or the lever over which the pads apply their clamping force (approximately ½ of the rotor radius minus ½ of the average piston diameter will be relatively close) 9. Pad friction coefficient, front and rear (if you do not know, assume it is 0.5 for racefriction and 0.4 for street friction, also unitless)10. Pedal ratio (as discussed previously)11. Target driver foot effort at maximum brake output. For racing use this should bearound 80 lbs. We are actually speaking of force here so we should use the correct convention and call it pound-force written as lbf. One lb by definition is equal to onelbf in the earth’s gravitational field of one G. One lbf also equals 4.448 newtons (N) and 0.454 kgf. The same convention of mass versus mass in a gravitational fieldapplies between kg and kgf. The reason for making this point will be made clear later in the context of driver leg input effort. In all cases the result of the calculations below will need to be tested since the vehiclebehavior under braking is also affected by suspension design and set up, tire pressures, shock set up and spring used. To begin the calculation we need to estimate the weight transfer under a maximumdeceleration or –G stopping force scenario. Start by adding the Static Front and Rear Weight(1 and 2 above):12. Vehicle Mass (or total weight) = M = Static Front + Rear WeightTo calculate weight transferred (∆W), multiply M by the maximum deceleration rate (3 above) multiplied by Center of gravity height (4 above) divided by Wheelbase (5 above):13. ∆W = M * γ (rate of deceleration in negative Gs) * Ht of C.G. / Wheel base∆W is then added to the static front weight and subtracted from the static rear weight for thepurpose of estimating the dynamic axle loading conditions: 14. The Dynamic Front Axle Weight during a maximum –G stop is = Static Front Weight + ∆W 15. The Dynamic Rear Axle Weight during a maximum –G stop is = the Static Rear Weight– ∆W Next, we need to calculate the maximum individual front and rear torque requirement by dividing the dynamic weight in half and multiplied by half the rolling diameter of the tire (6above) and multiplied by Maximum Deceleration Rate (3 above):16. Torque front = Tfront(units are either lb-ft or N-m) = (Dynamic front axle weight ineither pounds or newtons / 2) * (Tire Rolling Diameter front in feet or meters / 2) * Maximum deceleration rate 17. Torque rear = Trear(units are either lb-ft or N-m) = (Dynamic rear axle weight ineither lbs or newtons / 2) * (Tire Rolling Diameter rear in feet or meters / 2) *Maximum deceleration rate The torque output of the front and rear brake system will have to equal these values for astopping event at maximum deceleration.The torque output for the front brakes can be expressed as follows:18. Tfront= Apfront, total Area of pistons for one half of front caliper or in the case of aslider caliper design the total area of pistons of front caliper (7 above) * Rfront, the effective radius for the front brakes (8 above) * µ, the pad friction coefficient (9above) * 2 (for two sides to the rotor and pad interfaces) * Pf, the circuit pressure Now we want to change the equation to solve for the front circuit pressure:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 5
19. Front circuit pressure = Pfront(in N/mm2or psi) = Tfront(from immediately above) /Apfront/ Rfront/ µfront/ 2 (don’t forget the 2)Similarly we can solve for the rear by substituting the data that is different for the rear:20. Rear circuit pressure = Prear(in N/mm2or psi) = Trear(from immediately above) /Aprear/ Rrear/ µrear(rear specific, if different) / 2 (don’t forget the 2)With the circuit pressure requirement known one can solve for the pedal ratio and master cylinder size. U.S. Federal and E.C. regulations for automobile and light truck braking performance establish requirements for maximum effort by a driver in the case that the brakeassist fails. In some cases the assisted effort is too low and the unassisted effort might beclose to what a race driver would want. Typically on a street car effort is at or below 40 lbs (178 N or 18 kgf). In high performance vehicles and race cars we try to keep the leg forcerequired below 120 lbs (534 N or 54 kgf). Eighty lbs (356 N or 36 kgf) is ideal for mostrace applications. We provide the kgf unit of mass conversion at one G so that readers usedto using metric units can make a comparison of the data being presented to one half of their body mass being the force they experience on each of their feet while standing due to gravity.To determine master cylinder pushrod input force:21. Master cylinder pushrod input force = Driver foot input force / 2, since this force willbe distributed to two master cylinders and presuming for calculation purposes thatthe pedal bias adjuster will be centered * pedal ratio For example, 40 pounds of driver input force with a 6.2:1 pedal ratio results in 250 lbs ofinput pedal force to the adjuster bar and 125 lbs of master cylinder input force acting on each master cylinder pushrod with the bar centered. Individual Pushrods Clevises Adjuster bar CenterPivot
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 6
If we subsequently determine that we need to change the bias, we will turn the adjuster bar screw causing the center pivot to move closer to one of the master cylinders. The master cylinder that is now closer to the center pivot will experience an increase in input force equal to a decrease in the opposite master cylinder input force. This change in the ratio of input force will cause a change in the ratio of circuit pressures and therefore a change in the ratio ofwheel end caliper output force.The next step is to calculate the front and rear circuit master cylinder sizes:22. Master cylinder size of the front circuit = two times the square root of the result of taking master cylinder input force and dividing it by the front circuit pressure and dividing also by π, or 3.142 23. Master cylinder size of the rear circuit = two times the square root of the result of taking master cylinder input force and dividing it by the rear circuit pressure and dividing also by π, or 3.142 From these calculations you can do some what-if scenarios. For example, it is possible to calculate what the maximum indicated gage pressure should be for either circuit. Of course, the answer will depend on your leg strength, the pedal ratio, and the master cylinder size:Assuming that the pedal ratio and master cylinder size is as recommended (6.2:1 and 0.750 inch [19 mm]) and assuming the driver can leg bench press 600 lbs (300 on one leg), then2100 psi would be the maximum gage pressure if no effort was lost due to any systemcompliance like the deflection of the pedal box mount or lack of caliper stiffness. In practicethe maximum leg force possible is only around 120 lbs, which results in only 840 psi of circuitpressure. Even then, while most drivers are able to exert this much leg force without difficulty in the garage, it would be very hard to sustain this level for even a short race length. Brake Pedal Setup and Dual Master Cylinder Installation When the master cylinders are ready to be installed in the dual pedal arrangement, follow themanufacturer’s directions exactly for the distance between the master cylinder pushrod clevises on the adjuster bar and master cylinder pushrod lengths. These are very serious setup steps that must be performed correctly. As a general rule the distance between the master cylinder pushrod clevises on the adjuster bar must never be less than the distance between the master cylinder centerlines. In fact the distances should only be the same if the observed distance traveled by both of the master cylinder pushrods is the same. Otherwise, a slight increase in length between the clevisesover the distance between the centerlines is recommended to make the pushrods parallelwhen the two circuits came to normal operating pressures. A difference between thedistances of zero to +1/8 inch (0 to +3mm) is recommended. Any more will increase the sideloading on the pistons and lead to premature piston to bore wear and seal failure.In context with the pushrod lengths, care needs to be taken to adjust them so that under allcircumstances both master cylinders come all the way back to their home positions when the brake pedal is released. It is often the case that one of the master cylinder pushrod isadjusted so that it prevents the piston from returning completely. This will result in the pistonand piston lip seal being positioned in the bore so that the internal fluid porting does not refillthe master cylinder properly when not in use. This condition will be discovered in use when, after some pad wear occurs, the pedal begins todrop lower and lower. The problem can also be noticed as low flow or low pedal position whenusing gravity or pedal-pump and hold bleed methods respectively. Unfortunately vacuum and pressure bleeders will mask the problem until you are on the track and it is too late. In somecases the pedal mass alone will cause the partial displacement of one or both of the master cylinders off of the fully returned positions so a return spring needs to be added to compensate.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Page 7
This information is provided as a guide only, and is not to be regarded as a definitive statement of how to repair or fit any given item or system. Neither StopTech LLC, nor anyother party involved in creating this article, shall be liable for any direct, incidental, consequential, indirect, special, or punitive damages arising out of your access to or use ofthis publication.Neither the author of this document, nor StopTech LLC, make any warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and will not be held responsible or liable for errors or omissionsresulting in any loss or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly, or indirectly, byinformation contained in this article.

_________________
He is a wise man who does not grieve for the things which he has not, but rejoices for those which he has.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: August 3, 2008, 4:40 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 19, 2006, 5:48 pm
Posts: 1217
Location: S. Florida
junior wrote:
So the brakes work great on the car, but they require just a TON of force. I still have not been able to lock any of them up even when putting all my weight on the pedal. The car stops so fast the blood rushes into my eye balls, but my leg cramps after I do it and I have to sit there for my muscle to relax.

Also the petal is ROCK SOLID firm. It doesn't move very much at all. If I wanted to make the pedal more sensitive and take less force would I get a larger master cylinder or smaller?

J. R.

Smaller.

You might be able to change the pedal ratio to do the same thing. (Or put a brake booster in the system.)

Most cars (and the brake/clutch pedals you buy) start out with a 6 to 1 ratio. i.e. The length of the pedal from the center of the pivot hole to the ~middle of the pad where your foot pushes on the pedal would be 6 times more than the distance from the pivot hole to the hole where the master cylinder push rod is located.

See if there is room on the pedal to drill a new hole where the push rod to the master cylinder attaches to the pedal. You would want to make the attachment hole closer to the hole that the pedal pivots on.

You would also need to check if the push rod still enters the master cylinder pretty much straight in and not at an extreme angle.

I had to mount my clutch master cylinder at an angle when I increased my clutch pedal ratio to 9:1 (the max I could go).

_________________
"My junk is organized. At least is was when I put it wherever it is." -olrowdy
Completed building GSXR1000 CMC7, "Locouki"
Website: http://projekt.com/locouki/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: August 3, 2008, 4:46 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 19, 2006, 5:48 pm
Posts: 1217
Location: S. Florida
chetcpo wrote:
Based on the technical mumbo-jumbo I included below I would say smaller. :wink:

Quote:
This is the html version of the file http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/Pedal ... -Guide.pdf.
Google automatically generates html versions of documents as we crawl the web.

[sounds good to me, but a BIG snip follows!]

Page 7
This information is provided as a guide only, and is not to be regarded as a definitive statement of how to repair or fit any given item or system. Neither StopTech LLC, nor anyother party involved in creating this article, shall be liable for any direct, incidental, consequential, indirect, special, or punitive damages arising out of your access to or use ofthis publication.Neither the author of this document, nor StopTech LLC, make any warranty of any kind, expressed or implied, and will not be held responsible or liable for errors or omissionsresulting in any loss or damage caused or alleged to be caused directly, or indirectly, byinformation contained in this article.

Holy information overload Batman! What does it all mean?? :shock:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Lot's of good info there, but the .pdf to .html converter sure mushed it together in almost unreadable form. :cry:

_________________
"My junk is organized. At least is was when I put it wherever it is." -olrowdy
Completed building GSXR1000 CMC7, "Locouki"
Website: http://projekt.com/locouki/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: August 3, 2008, 6:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: September 18, 2006, 8:51 pm
Posts: 406
Location: Longmont, Co.
Just curious, but what size cylinder are you running now?
wayne


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: August 3, 2008, 11:46 pm 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7652
Location: Massachusetts
It's a little surprising you can't lock a wheel up trying that hard. I saw the picture, but can't guess the size of your master cylinders. Now you get to start having a collection. Maybe these can be spares for your clutch.

Are you using some type special high performance pad? Still have the bias centered?

Since neither wheel locks you need two smaller cylinders ( or more/larger calipers ). I don't want to suggest the amount of change in size without knowing what your using though.

I prefer a hard pedal with slightly high effort. I think it's a little easier to modulate. You don't want to be chirping your tires under braking trying to learn how to get your down shifts right. Judging from pad choices of other track drivers, many disagree and use soft pads.

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: August 3, 2008, 11:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: July 17, 2007, 12:09 am
Posts: 687
Pad is stock, tires are 295's front 335 rear, not like that has anything to do with why I can't get my tires to lock up. Really though the car stops like nothing I have ever felt in my entire life.


Anyway....smaller it is. It is a tilton pedal assembly. I will go look what size they are tomorrow and post.

J. R.

_________________
Attention TURBO LOVERS, Great book -----> How to turbocharge and Tune your Engine
Sold: GT30/71R My00 S2k
My Car: Custom Build Lotus Super 7


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: August 4, 2008, 1:23 am 
Offline
Mid-Engined Maniac

Joined: April 23, 2006, 8:26 pm
Posts: 6410
Location: SoCal
Yes, smaller.

As far as how much smaller to make it, the force/distance factor is directly proportional to cylinder AREA, not diameter. So even a small change makes a decent difference. Let's say you current have a 3/4" cylinder and go one step smaller, to 11/16". The force on the pedal for equivalent braking will be 84% as much, or abou 20% less effort. If it's as bad as you say, you may want to just two sizes - just be aware that the pedal will also move more by the same factor.

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains
Both available from https://www.lulu.com/


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject:
PostPosted: August 5, 2008, 1:04 am 
Offline

Joined: July 17, 2007, 12:09 am
Posts: 687
Excellent!

Thanks guys.

J. R.

_________________
Attention TURBO LOVERS, Great book -----> How to turbocharge and Tune your Engine
Sold: GT30/71R My00 S2k
My Car: Custom Build Lotus Super 7


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 7, 2010, 6:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: September 25, 2008, 6:13 pm
Posts: 468
Location: Los Angeles, CA
So I just put together an excel doc that lets you push information into it and get the resulting Master Cylinder Size.

Enjoy.

https://sites.google.com/site/govermenttruck1965/car-stuffs/BrakeMasterCylinderDiameterCalculator.xls?attredirects=0&d=1


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 10, 2010, 10:23 am 
Offline

Joined: August 4, 2010, 3:43 pm
Posts: 21
Location: NC
Milo, thanks for sharing that MC calculator. I haven't gone through it all but on first glance I believe the Dynamic Weight Rear (DynMr) is backwards. It appears to add the ∆W to the rear instead of subtracting it. The rear keeps getting heavier the harder you brake.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 12, 2010, 2:55 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: September 25, 2008, 6:13 pm
Posts: 468
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Thanks for catching that. You are absolutely right!

EDIT: Also discovered a problem in the master cylinder size calculation. It was assuming a single master cylinder while showing two. Now it calculates by default for two MCs with equal bias but you can insert bias if you want. New version uploaded to the old link.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: October 12, 2010, 4:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: March 30, 2008, 12:02 am
Posts: 161
Location: Michigan
junior wrote:
Pad is stock, tires are 295's front 335 rear, not like that has anything to do with why I can't get my tires to lock up. Really though the car stops like nothing I have ever felt in my entire life.

J. R.


:shock: Think you have enough tire? :shock:

With that much rubber, I would be tempted to go power on the brakes because you may need alot to lock them up. You do realize that you have more tire there than the Corvette ZR1? Thats a 3350# car which stops from 60 mph in under 100 feet...


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 18, 2010, 7:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: September 27, 2010, 8:21 am
Posts: 32
Location: Memphis
I can understand wanting to get pedal effort down, but not to the point of being able to lock up the tires.

If you can get the effort down to reasonable without locking them up I'd say don't worry about it. Stopping hard is stopping hard no matter which way you look at it, making the breaks able to lock up just gives you one more way to screw up in a panic situation.

Got any pics of your car with those fat tires on it? Sounds fun :D.

_________________
"To add speed, add lightness" - Anthony Colin Bruce Chapman
"Aerodynamics is for those who cannot manufacture good engines" - Enzo Ferrari
"If everything seems under control, you`re just not going fast enough." - Mario Andretti
"I couldn't find the sports car of my dreams, so I built it myself." - Ferdinand Porsche


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted: October 19, 2010, 1:03 am 
Offline
The voice of reason
User avatar

Joined: January 10, 2008, 4:47 pm
Posts: 7652
Location: Massachusetts
You absolutely need to be able to lock up the tires, and without too much effort. It shouldn't take all your strength or hurt your foot, for instance.

You will have more traction on some surfaces then others and also going uphill. You may need to stop quickly and if you can't lock them up in average conditions you will waste stopping distance when you have really good traction.

If you spin or lose control of the car, you generally will want to lock up the wheels so that you know what path the car will take. If the wheels are locked the car will go in a straight line even while spinning. If they aren't you may suddenly veer off the road or even worse roll the car when you do get traction. Very dangerous...

_________________
Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
Car9 Roadster information - models, drawings, resources etc.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 19 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 7 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
POWERED_BY