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PostPosted: January 29, 2019, 3:42 pm 
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I’ve been working on lap belt anchor points and this prompted thinking about harness choices. The last time I did harness selection, 3” lap belt and shoulder belts were de rigueur. Now it seems the choices are either 2” or 3” belt webbing with 3” tapering to 2” for use with HANS devices. Then there’s 5-point and 6-point options for sub-belts. Most of the choices now come with various SFI or FIA approvals and date restrictions.

The 3” variety has always seemed a bit bulky to me. But in an accident, they do help spread the load (or load the spread as the case may be.) With 2” webbing it’s easier to get a clean path across the midriff and hip bones to the lap belt anchors and they are less cumbersome to buckle and adjust. And 6-point subs provide a larger ballroom as opposed to the 5-point floss style. Decisions, decisions…

I’m tending towards 2” belt webbing on a 6-point harness for street use with occasional track-day and autocross options.

Interested in your thoughts, comments and choices.

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PostPosted: January 29, 2019, 3:51 pm 
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My current harness plan is some form of the Schroth ASM Harness in the 2" lap + 3" shoulder. From experience I much prefer the 2" shoulders for HANS use but don't intend on wearing one on the street. You can add a sub belt but the ASM part lets you run w/o when just cruising around. Only real issue is the price.

Edit: the Sabelt Lightweight Caterham / Kit Car 4 Point Harness is my second choice. It gets a point for bolt in ends. I believe you can also add a sub strap here.


Last edited by hfmaxi on January 29, 2019, 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: January 29, 2019, 3:54 pm 
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I originally had 3" 5-points on a street car. Getting in and out took a very-very long time. 2x that if you have a passenger as the space needed to move about prevented both from strapping in at the same time. It had to be done sequentially. I switched to a pair of 2" wide 3-point military Hummer belts I found surplus on eBay and never looked back. I could always have changed back for a track day if necessary.

2nd point: With a book chassis and 5-point belts I could just barely reach the dash to activate the lights or wiper controls with the tippy tips of my fingers. Sometimes I had to ask my co-pilot to do it for me. With 3-point belts it was no problem at all.

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PostPosted: January 30, 2019, 1:51 am 
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Heh, ballroom.

I've not purchased mine yet but plan to in the next month. After much consideration I had also chosen 6 points with 2" webbing. Unfortunately it seems difficult to find one in the exact configuration I wanted, so unless I find a better option I am likely going to go with this: https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/ ... /overview/


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PostPosted: January 30, 2019, 2:48 am 
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Thanks for the input folks. Very helpful. It got me spending a bunch of time on the interweb. Seems the manufacturers' websites offer much more complete info than the retailers I had been researching. Best info I found was on the Schroth site, complete with six instructional videos on proper belt wrapping for the various belt-end and anchor types.

Think I'll go with 2" lap and shoulder belts, both with pull down adjusters, and V-type anti-sub belts. Found a choice I like at a somewhat reasonable price with several configuration options:
https://www.schrothracing.com/products/ ... -harnesses
Zig, you might want to take a look at these.

Looks like 7/16" - 20 shoulder bolts are the thing to use on these, even though the belt end pieces have 1/2" holes. So that will dictate the welded-on nuts at my lap belt anchor points. The shoulder belts will wrap the harness bar. I still need to figure out the best mounting option for the anti-sub belts.

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My Car9 build: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=14613
"It's the construction of the car-the sheer lunacy and joy of making diverse parts come together and work as one-that counts."

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PostPosted: January 30, 2019, 4:30 am 
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I've been saving a pair of out dated but barely used 3" 6pt harnesses but have been reconsidering them, even if using what I already have is the most low-cost solution. Honestly, if it's just for street and autox use, I'd probably rather just run something like the Schroth Rally Cross ASM-4pt...Or maybe even a retractable 3pt if space allows. The main reason I'd be more inclined to run a conventional 5pt or 6pt is for any track use that required them, and even then I'd consider just swapping them out for just for those days.

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Last edited by Driven5 on January 30, 2019, 1:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: January 30, 2019, 7:52 am 
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I have a spare pair of said Hummer belts. Accidentally bought 2 PAIRS instead of 2 BELTS. Would let them go at a good price (ie, promise of a ride someday + shipping).

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PostPosted: January 30, 2019, 11:39 pm 
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One important thing to consider is that race belts do not stretch. On the street in a front end hit with your shoulder belts tight, your neck is going to take a beating. Whiplash or death most likely. As someone who has fairly severe neck whiplash, I can tell you it is not something to risk lightly. DOT belts/harnesses stretch which lengthens the time of the acceleration, and also allows the body to get in better position before the neck moves. To that point, I would highly recommend street belts for any non-HANS use.

The Schroth ones claim to have an anti-submarine ability to them which seems pretty important for a Locost. I wasn't able to fit them, so purchased some from:

https://www.seatbeltplanet.com/c-138930 ... rness.html

These are the correct stretchy DOT material and meet the US rating. Priced well and good quality. They also work well in a Locost because the lap belt adjusters are fixed to the buckle, rather than float/move as you pull it tight. I have very narrow seats, and even less room between seat and tunnel so this was required.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: January 31, 2019, 12:20 am 
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If anyone is interested, I found some on clearance at Summit: https://www.summitracing.com/dom/parts/ ... /overview/

Great info in this thread, I definitely learned a few things!


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PostPosted: January 31, 2019, 9:27 am 
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C10CoryM wrote:
(snip) DOT belts/harnesses stretch which lengthens the time of the acceleration, and also allows the body to get in better position before the neck moves. To that point, I would highly recommend street belts for any non-HANS use.
(snip)


In the days after Dale Sr died, Ford ran of of their NASCAR chassis into their crash test wall (Dearborn, I assume) at 45 mph. They killed the dummy.

I always thought that the culprit was the stiff chassis, and yeah, that's part of it. But now that you mention it, the non-stretchy belts w/o a HANS didn't help either. BTW, I've been told by the motor sports safety gurus that fatal basilar skull injuries can happen as low as 40-42 mph.

Safety works as a "system". For instance, a roll bar becomes a hazard if your head is allowed to hit it during a crash, etc.

I'm adding this one to my notes. Thanks for the education!

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/seatb.html

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PostPosted: January 31, 2019, 10:10 am 
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Aaaaaargh! I hadn't even considered the stretching issue. That's because I wasn't aware of it. I bought a racing setup for the drivers side thinking it would be the best engineered setup.

They say prayer helps. I hope their right. :ack:

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

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PostPosted: January 31, 2019, 11:03 am 
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Any reason why I can't have DOT belts (from the HumVee) for regular use, and then a 4-5-6 point FIA harness next to it for track use?

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PostPosted: January 31, 2019, 7:21 pm 
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Location: BC, Canada. eh?
^^^That would be my thinking...and the reason I built in 6-point harness anchor points, but installed 3-point DOT-approved shoulder harnesses (i.e., standard street-legal car equipment) for street use.

There are jurisdictions in which anything other than such street-legal belts are illegal for street use. Aside from the convenience aspect, I also considered the insurance liability issue. If you were in a collision in your car, and were injured, I would expect that any insurance company worth its salt, on learning your car wasn't equipped with street-legal safety equipment, would be very quick to try to reduce or deny your claim for injuries. Kind of like riding a motorcycle without a helmet in a state where helmets are mandatory, crashing, and sustaining a head injury. I doubt any insurance company would want to pay out.

Such safety & liability issues aren't to be taken lightly - they can affect the rest of your life...

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PostPosted: January 31, 2019, 9:58 pm 
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From a safety POV, I think the race harness for track and DOT for street is best. I'd also throw some high-density padding on your seat backs/bottoms if not already equipped. As mentioned, there may be local laws against the race harness in a street car. I wouldn't be concerned about the liability aspect of dual belts personally with the assumption there are other things on most custom cars that would draw attention over that. In my daily driver, I have the OE 3pt belt and a race lap-belt. The lap belt is to hold me secure in the seat during autoX events.

You could run only the DOT harness for Time Attack and track days, but you would be without a proper anti-submarine belt (arm restraints too) and I am not sure the HANS etc would work properly with stretchy belts.

One thing if you choose to run dual belts: When you do a track day, tie the street belts away so you can't accidentally put them on. The hustle and excitement of track days mixed with muscle-memory will make you do silly things like that. At the track, I have to put zip-ties on my ebrake handle so I don't accidentally apply it after lapping sessions with hot brakes.

Cheers.

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PostPosted: January 31, 2019, 10:24 pm 
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Some great points there! :cheers:

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