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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 5, 2021, 9:22 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Nice to see you are keeping the original seats.

I tried miata seats in the spitfire. I would have lost a lot of head room and they just don't fit well to the pan. I bought a used set of spitfire seats with good upholstery off ebay since I only had frames and an upholstery kit made in the UK through ebay for about $150/pair.

I'm sure you could use a break from all the welding and grinding.

Still plenty of welding with these mounts. I cut a box out of the 1/2 x1/2 tube for the nuts and weld them to the floor.
My buddy has a ‘66 B and I always thought they were pretty decent and his are worn out. I really wanted bomber seats but since my wife is heavily involved with this build she said no. I would have made a seat like Stryker.
Hey question for you. What are your thoughts on bushings made from slippery MDS material? We have to make some for out Formula Student car and I thought I could make some for the GT too. The poly stuff seems pricey.

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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 5, 2021, 10:37 pm 
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There are so many good choices but most are not cheap. Looking for low moisture absorption, good impact strength, wear resistance, and slippery. Delrin has been used by racers for decades and clicks all the blocks. A 1-1/4 rod (probably big enough to make flanged bushes/bearings), one foot long is under $10 from mcmaster. Comes in black or neutral white. Oil filled UHMW might be slippery enough; regular uhmw is not and will squeek like mad if not well lubed. Nylon swells with moisture but I don't know how much or if the moly powder offsets the dimensional change or if you are using moly filled regular or 6/6. You can always replace it later if needed.

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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 5, 2021, 10:52 pm 
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So the second one here is the one I have to use for our spec car. The first one I’ve already run across on a MGB forum where a guy made his own bushings and loved them. Just curious your take.

https://www.mcmaster.com/acetal-homopol ... and-discs/

https://www.mcmaster.com/catalog/127/3912

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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 6, 2021, 8:56 am 
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I’m sure they were a big improvement but there are better choices imho. The PTFE benefit is offset by having half the impact strength, a third less tensile strength, and costing four times as much as standard black delrin like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/8576K23/

In your second link, I assume you were referring to MDS filled nylon 6/6
The only bad thing about the moly filled 6/6 nylon is water absorption, which is about twice that of delrin initially but increases as the water content increases. Delrin is more dimensionally stable in a damp environment.

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Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 6, 2021, 8:11 pm 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
I’m sure they were a big improvement but there are better choices imho. The PTFE benefit is offset by having half the impact strength, a third less tensile strength, and costing four times as much as standard black delrin like this: https://www.mcmaster.com/8576K23/

In your second link, I assume you were referring to MDS filled nylon 6/6
The only bad thing about the moly filled 6/6 nylon is water absorption, which is about twice that of delrin initially but increases as the water content increases. Delrin is more dimensionally stable in a damp environment.

Very interesting. I think I’ve about talked myself into this I just have to figure out how much interference to turn them down to. I have no idea. Rubber hammer tap into place or press into place? I do have to order new pivots for the control arms, the ones I have are pitted and flat spotted. This is cool.

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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 6, 2021, 9:14 pm 
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I ran MGB V8 control arm bushings on my MGA. It is a popular choice there. I'll be doing the same in the MGB GT. The pivots aren't really a "pivot" for them as they are rubber bushings with a bonded steel insert. Therefore, the inner bushings do not rotate on the "pivot", no interference issue, no lubrication issues and no squeaks. an old pitted "pivot" will work just fine. My intent is a highway cruiser. YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 6, 2021, 9:42 pm 
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rx7locost wrote:
I ran MGB V8 control arm bushings on my MGA. It is a popular choice there. I'll be doing the same in the MGB GT. The pivots aren't really a "pivot" for them as they are rubber bushings with a bonded steel insert. Therefore, the inner bushings do not rotate on the "pivot", no interference issue, no lubrication issues and no squeaks. an old pitted "pivot" will work just fine. My intent is a highway cruiser. YMMV.


I have MG rubbers on the 7. So why don’t you need a good pivot with the steel sleeve? Anything you put on needs to rotate on the pivot point doesn’t it?

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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 6, 2021, 11:01 pm 
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Steve, perhaps Moss Motors can explain it better than I. https://mossmotors.com/media/instructio ... 8_INST.pdf

I will add that IF it were intended to rotate, why does the design not include bronze bushings and grease fittings like all the other "moving" parts in the front suspension? The answer is it is not intended to rotate. Instructions for assembly are that the nuts are to be tightened with the lower control arm in its normal loaded position so as not to over stress the rubber in either bump or rebound.


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Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 6, 2021, 11:34 pm 
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rx7locost wrote:
Steve, perhaps Moss Motors can explain it better than I. https://mossmotors.com/media/instructio ... 8_INST.pdf

I will add that IF it were intended to rotate, why does the design not include bronze bushings and grease fittings like all the other "moving" parts in the front suspension? The answer is it is not intended to rotate. Instructions for assembly are that the nuts are to be tightened with the lower control arm in its normal loaded position so as not to over stress the rubber in either bump or rebound.

I was just talking a friend about this who is a machinist. He asked if zerk fittings could be added to the housing.
This is really interesting. Makes a guy want to stick with rubber, wow

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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 7, 2021, 8:51 am 
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Turn them for a slight interference fit to ensure they are not loose due to imperfections in the shell but even a loose fit is more accurate than any bonded rubber of the same dimensions.

Suspension bushings are a compromise like anything else. Bonded rubber has been the standard for oem vehicles at least as early as the ‘60s. They work well and last a long time if not oil soaked or twisted too far, cracking the rubber, too old, or too many cycles.

They are compliant, allowing the control arm to float around under load on the center sleeve. How much depends on the size and shape for a given load.

The compliance causes all alignment specs to fluctuate dynamically but they are zero maintenance and have an outer shell that presses into the control arm so pitting in the arm has no effect.

Long ago, when there were no off the shelf options to oem rubber bonded or hobby machinist lathes, racers would drive small nails into the rubber so it would be less compliant.

According to Norm Garrett, the miata was designed with higher durometer rubber than is typical for oems to help compensate for this compliance.

Cost is another factor since some oem bushes cost a great deal more than making your own or the application is rare/old enough that replacements are not available.

For a tourer, oem bonded rubber makes sense to me, especially if the arms need new shells.

Poly bushes do not last forever either. They eventually crumble. Also, the EPA has required most plastics to be biodegradable.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 7, 2021, 10:27 am 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Turn them for a slight interference fit to ensure they are not loose due to imperfections in the shell but even a loose fit is more accurate than any bonded rubber of the same dimensions.

Suspension bushings are a compromise like anything else. Bonded rubber has been the standard for oem vehicles at least as early as the ‘60s. They work well and last a long time if not oil soaked or twisted too far, cracking the rubber, too old, or too many cycles.

They are compliant, allowing the control arm to float around under load on the center sleeve. How much depends on the size and shape for a given load.

The compliance causes all alignment specs to fluctuate dynamically but they are zero maintenance and have an outer shell that presses into the control arm so pitting in the arm has no effect.

Long ago, when there were no off the shelf options to oem rubber bonded or hobby machinist lathes, racers would drive small nails into the rubber so it would be less compliant.

According to Norm Garrett, the miata was designed with higher durometer rubber than is typical for oems to help compensate for this compliance.

Cost is another factor since some oem bushes cost a great deal more than making your own or the application is rare/old enough that replacements are not available.

For a tourer, oem bonded rubber makes sense to me, especially if the arms need new shells.

Poly bushes do not last forever either. They eventually crumble. Also, the EPA has required most plastics to be biodegradable.


I'm going to order that rod you recommended and give it a shot.

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My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782


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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 7, 2021, 10:27 am 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
Turn them for a slight interference fit to ensure they are not loose due to imperfections in the shell but even a loose fit is more accurate than any bonded rubber of the same dimensions.

Suspension bushings are a compromise like anything else. Bonded rubber has been the standard for oem vehicles at least as early as the ‘60s. They work well and last a long time if not oil soaked or twisted too far, cracking the rubber, too old, or too many cycles.

They are compliant, allowing the control arm to float around under load on the center sleeve. How much depends on the size and shape for a given load.

The compliance causes all alignment specs to fluctuate dynamically but they are zero maintenance and have an outer shell that presses into the control arm so pitting in the arm has no effect.

Long ago, when there were no off the shelf options to oem rubber bonded or hobby machinist lathes, racers would drive small nails into the rubber so it would be less compliant.

According to Norm Garrett, the miata was designed with higher durometer rubber than is typical for oems to help compensate for this compliance.

Cost is another factor since some oem bushes cost a great deal more than making your own or the application is rare/old enough that replacements are not available.

For a tourer, oem bonded rubber makes sense to me, especially if the arms need new shells.

Poly bushes do not last forever either. They eventually crumble. Also, the EPA has required most plastics to be biodegradable.


I'm going to order that rod you recommended and give it a shot. Do you think these need a sleeve?

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MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782


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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 7, 2021, 10:57 am 
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You need an inner race/sleeve/positive stop for the bolt to clamp in the flanges. The original inner of oem bonded will surrender the original sleeve by burning the original bush with a hand torch to keep it going if it does not stay ignited. Once hot enough from burning, the inner will pop itself out once the bond is overheated. This is also the best way to remove bonded from the control arms, leaving a perfectly smooth shell. The outer would be the control arm shell or the press-in shell of the original bonded bush.

The condition of the surface on the outer is not critical since the friction will be greatest on the bush id with a higher psi/smaller contact surface for the same load. The wear will occur from relative motion on the bush id, not the od.

The bushes are usually much larger in od to provide enough rubber wall thickness for the degree of twist required without tearing. This is more od than is needed for a bush so one could sleeve the shell to repair if needed.

Ideally, the inner sleeve od would be 1/4-3/8 inch smaller than the bush shell id for a 1/8 or so bush wall for minimum psi/friction/deformation from load. I'd just make bushes to replace the rubber.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 7, 2021, 11:03 am 
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Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
You need an inner race/sleeve/positive stop for the bolt to clamp in the flanges. The original inner of oem bonded will surrender the original sleeve by burning the original bush with a hand torch to keep it going if it does not stay ignited. Once hot enough from burning, the inner will pop itself out once the bond is overheated. This is also the best way to remove bonded from the control arms, leaving a perfectly smooth shell. The outer would be the control arm shell or the press-in shell of the original bonded bush.

The condition of the surface on the outer is not critical since the friction will be greatest on the bush id with a higher psi/smaller contact surface for the same load. The wear will occur from relative motion on the bush id, not the od.

The bushes are usually much larger in od to provide enough rubber wall thickness for the degree of twist required without tearing. This is more od than is needed for a bush so one could sleeve the shell to repair if needed.

Ideally, the inner sleeve od would be 1/4-3/8 inch smaller than the bush shell id for a 1/8 or so bush wall for minimum psi/friction/deformation from load. I'd just make bushes to replace the rubber.

So the new Delrin I don’t have to worry about sleeves just a couple thousands interference press fit? The pivots I have 1 has a flat spot, any problem with that? Otherwise I can clean them up and polish the surface and reuse them. 3 of the 4 are pretty good shape.

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My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782


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 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: December 7, 2021, 11:06 am 
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You need the steel inner sleeve and either the bonded bushing shell or just the control arm shell.

You can make an inner from gas pipe or dom.

Depends on the flat spot.

They may be the same as what is on the spitfire. I have lots of spare bits.

_________________
Miata UBJ: ES-2074R('70s maz pickup)
Ford IFS viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13225&p=134742
Simple Spring select viewtopic.php?f=5&t=11815
LxWxHt
360LA 442E: 134.5x46x15
Lotus7:115x39x7.25
Tiger Avon:114x40x13.3-12.6
Champion/Book:114x42x11
Gibbs/Haynes:122x42x14
VoDou:113x44x14
McSorley 442:122x46x14
Collins 241:127x46x12


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