LocostUSA.com

Learning how to build Lotus Seven replicas...together!
It is currently December 3, 2021, 2:59 pm

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 268 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 8, 2021, 6:59 am 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7152
Location: "Banana Republic"
The over arc issue is easily corrected with stack disassembly and a hydraulic press to slightly recurve of each leaf along the length. Generally not a process for enthusiasts who are not mechs or mech engineers imho.

If cost were no object, I’d probably go with parabolics also. It's only money, right? Your time is the most valuable thing.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.azsenaterepublicans.com/audit
https://www.oann.com/india-govt-declares-most-populated-state-officially-covid-free-after-widespread-use-of-ivermectin/
https://www.oann.com/fauci-hhs-officials-discuss-using-new-virus-from-china-to-enforce-universal-vaccines-in-footage-from-oct-2019/
https://www.oann.com/the-story-of-iverm ... -the-drug/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
https://rumble.com/vokrf7-sen.-johnson-expert-panel-on-federal-vaccine-mandates.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 8, 2021, 9:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 8, 2014, 6:08 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Green Bay, WI
Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
The over arc issue is easily corrected with stack disassembly and a hydraulic press to slightly recurve of each leaf along the length. Generally not a process for enthusiasts who are not mechs or mech engineers imho.

If cost were no object, I’d probably go with parabolics also. It's only money, right? Your time is the most valuable thing.

The Parobolics have good reviews from owners. I’m thinking this would give me my true Grand Touring car I have in my head. It should still be able to take a corner but this is going to do more touring than anything. In the scheme of things $500 isn’t bad. I just have to weld on the rear perches.
I was thinking about the weight difference you mentioned. The 8.8 I’m thinking is going to be at least 50lbs heavier.

_________________
Steve

My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 8, 2021, 9:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 8, 2014, 6:08 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Green Bay, WI
Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
The over arc issue is easily corrected with stack disassembly and a hydraulic press to slightly recurve of each leaf along the length. Generally not a process for enthusiasts who are not mechs or mech engineers imho.

If cost were no object, I’d probably go with parabolics also. It's only money, right? Your time is the most valuable thing.

I emailed Eaton to see what standard spring would cost in the 2.5” spring. We’ll see what the quote is like

_________________
Steve

My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 17, 2021, 3:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 8, 2014, 6:08 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Green Bay, WI
Found out some more information on springs. Custom springs are very expensive. Like $1k a pair. I also found out parabolics don’t handle power. So it looks like we use stock springs like a race spring or the 4 bar. Anyway I worked on my door gap. I think I got it.


Attachments:
3C200F5A-B44A-4764-B595-B163BC2B98C4.jpeg
3C200F5A-B44A-4764-B595-B163BC2B98C4.jpeg [ 427.26 KiB | Viewed 862 times ]

_________________
Steve

My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 18, 2021, 7:59 am 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7152
Location: "Banana Republic"
Nice jambs!

I still think the YJ front springs with new front eyes a little further forward is the best option overall.
Since the car is on the rotisserie, bottoms up, YJ main leaf inverted and parallel with the stack clamp bolt/pin hole ½ inch forward of centered in the wheel well due to the unloaded arc of the leaf. (The wheel will move back in the well with curb weight and compression as the spring flattens out, making the distance to the front eye greater than unloaded.)

Build shackles. These should end up very close to directly over the mgb shackle bush holes in the unibody. You could start with the oem or aftermarket YJ shackles and heavy duty bushes to fit the mgb or make your own. Add a dom tube with an od to fit the stock mgb bush id, then add 3/8 inch thick or so shims/washers with an id to fit the dom od at each shackle flange and thru bolts to clamp the dom tube as a positive stop. Use grade 8 bolts that are not fully threaded. Better to get extra long bolts so the unthreaded shank is about 2.75 inches then trim the excess threads with a thin disc grinder and radius the cut edge. You may be able to use the YJ bolts with the appropriate wall thickness dom.

With the leafs still parallel, make a front eye hanger with ½ inch clearance to the unibody. Build in the traction aid flanges on the eye mount for the torque reaction links to control pinion angle/spring wrap. Same 2.5 inch distance between flanges.

I don’t know why anybody would expect parabolics to work well with a lot of torque without traction aids to control pinion angle.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.azsenaterepublicans.com/audit
https://www.oann.com/india-govt-declares-most-populated-state-officially-covid-free-after-widespread-use-of-ivermectin/
https://www.oann.com/fauci-hhs-officials-discuss-using-new-virus-from-china-to-enforce-universal-vaccines-in-footage-from-oct-2019/
https://www.oann.com/the-story-of-iverm ... -the-drug/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
https://rumble.com/vokrf7-sen.-johnson-expert-panel-on-federal-vaccine-mandates.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 18, 2021, 1:07 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7152
Location: "Banana Republic"
An example of the traction aid I've been referring to:

http://www.mgbmga.com/tech/mgb27.htm

But use sphericals instead of bushes to prevent binding and make the length adjustable.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.azsenaterepublicans.com/audit
https://www.oann.com/india-govt-declares-most-populated-state-officially-covid-free-after-widespread-use-of-ivermectin/
https://www.oann.com/fauci-hhs-officials-discuss-using-new-virus-from-china-to-enforce-universal-vaccines-in-footage-from-oct-2019/
https://www.oann.com/the-story-of-iverm ... -the-drug/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
https://rumble.com/vokrf7-sen.-johnson-expert-panel-on-federal-vaccine-mandates.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 18, 2021, 9:08 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 8, 2014, 6:08 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Green Bay, WI
Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
An example of the traction aid I've been referring to:

http://www.mgbmga.com/tech/mgb27.htm

But use sphericals instead of bushes to prevent binding and make the length adjustable.

So the YJ springs I’m guessing are from another car? I’ve been finding MGB OEM spring rates from 93-116 in/lb. I have no idea what to believe.
These springs you speak of are a match obviously to this build but there 2-3/4” wide? I recently found spring sliders. They seem appealing, would they work for this as well?
When I asked the guy if the parabolics would work with V8 I honestly didn’t think they were that weak, oh well. He was probably laughing too. The mix and match game gets a little dicey, you have done a lot of homework on this. Hahaha I gave up and was going to go back to stock. You have my attention I just have to get all the parts in my head.

_________________
Steve

My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 18, 2021, 9:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 8, 2014, 6:08 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Green Bay, WI
I finally had a chance to take the doors off after 10 months no they should be off for quite some time while I can disassemble those on the bench now that’ll be nice. One more rust hole to deal with and I circled that.


Attachments:
B59AF6E8-2B8C-40C9-96A7-4276125E4516.jpeg
B59AF6E8-2B8C-40C9-96A7-4276125E4516.jpeg [ 485.26 KiB | Viewed 778 times ]
5CF6D7BB-AB77-4963-9AD8-9E5F6410E55D.jpeg
5CF6D7BB-AB77-4963-9AD8-9E5F6410E55D.jpeg [ 210.02 KiB | Viewed 778 times ]

_________________
Steve

My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782
Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 19, 2021, 6:28 am 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7152
Location: "Banana Republic"
Tundra 7 wrote:
Miatav8,MstrASE,A&P,F wrote:
An example of the traction aid I've been referring to:

http://www.mgbmga.com/tech/mgb27.htm

But use sphericals instead of bushes to prevent binding and make the length adjustable.

So the YJ springs I’m guessing are from another car? I’ve been finding MGB OEM spring rates from 93-116 in/lb. I have no idea what to believe.
These springs you speak of are a match obviously to this build but there 2-3/4” wide? I recently found spring sliders. They seem appealing, would they work for this as well?
When I asked the guy if the parabolics would work with V8 I honestly didn’t think they were that weak, oh well. He was probably laughing too. The mix and match game gets a little dicey, you have done a lot of homework on this. Hahaha I gave up and was going to go back to stock. You have my attention I just have to get all the parts in my head.


There is definitely more to consider when using leafs than when using coils.
Sliders are better than shackles because they are less likely to bind when cornering and they don’t add to or take away from spring rate the way the angle of a shackle (relative to a line drawn through front and rear eyes) does. They need to be kept clean though.

There are benefits to going from a thick stack of 1-3/4 inch wide leafs to a thin stack of 2-1/2 inch leafs. Reduced friction from fewer leafs, stronger leafs, much more resistant to lateral deformation from cornering loads and lower cost with similar weight. Most everything uses 2-1/2 inch wide springs. Utility trailers use 1-3/4 wide springs like the mgb. 70s postal jeeps (also called DJs) have 2 inch wide front springs on the front axle.

The YJ I’ve been referring to is the early 90s/late 80s Jeep Wrangler (the one with square headlights). It has 2-1/2 inch wide leaf springs on the front and rear that are the same design but the rear has an extra leaf for a higher spring rate. These are the only oem application leafs I’ve found that should work with the mgb shackle bush location, which is more difficult to modify than moving the front eye hangers forward. Pinto/mustang 2 leafs are close but too long behind the axle.

Two of these ($155):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/303896140808?f ... SwuvBgNLui
Full jeep leaf bushing set ($36):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/313677054439?f ... SwVJ5hQ4mm
Basic shackles to mod (shimming mgb side) and hardware:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133848810235?h ... Sw9xJdk1-K
Mgb shackle bushing set (if jeep set can’t be made to fit the mgb frame) ($20):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/152704258532?f ... SwqYhZu05l
Leaf perches that are not welded until the end when the pinion angle is set or you can make your own ($18/pair):
https://www.ebay.com/itm/153199439555?_ ... %3A2047675
You may want lowering blocks like most mgbs that I’ve seen and may need longer ubolts. Here is a typical kit ($53) or you can build the perch and space as needed:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/133373941421?_ ... =671685162

You should still have the 8.8 leaf plates to build off of for the damper mounts and traction link. If not, any older ford truck or van can provide plates and probably ubolts.

If I were planning for this from the beginning, I’d probably go with a 95 explorer traction lok 8.8 with swaybar (or lighter bronco II with a 7.5, all the same stuff but narrower width) and reuse all the hardware along with used YJ leafs and hardware from the South or dry rust-free western areas through ebay sellers.

However, if you are just trying to build a car for resale, oem interchangeable leafs or a 4 link will probably be better than trying to sell a buyer on the fact that you fit Jeep suspension, even if it is an improvement. A good bit of work no matter what you do.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.azsenaterepublicans.com/audit
https://www.oann.com/india-govt-declares-most-populated-state-officially-covid-free-after-widespread-use-of-ivermectin/
https://www.oann.com/fauci-hhs-officials-discuss-using-new-virus-from-china-to-enforce-universal-vaccines-in-footage-from-oct-2019/
https://www.oann.com/the-story-of-iverm ... -the-drug/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
https://rumble.com/vokrf7-sen.-johnson-expert-panel-on-federal-vaccine-mandates.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 19, 2021, 11:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
Posts: 5966
Location: West Chicago,IL
All this discussion about leaf springs vs parabolics vs coilovers has my head spinning. Steve, what is your goal? lower than stock? Adjustable? Ride height? Ride quality? Lowest cost?

I would suggest either going with stock GT springs (maybe with helpers?) or go all the way with adjustable valve coilovers. You already know about the questionable ride height of aftermarket "stock" leaf springs. Trying to adapt Pinto or Jeep springs seems top me the be a lot of work and questionable outcome. If the outcome of leaf springs is not to your liking, the job to fix it again is just as large. Without heat treating, bending leaf springs in a press is not a long term solution, they will bend further sooner than later.

TBH, there has been a lot said about how poor the "upgraded" to tube shocks are on MGBs. I'm sure a lot of that has to do with getting non-adjustable shocks, the poor design of the mounts, and to some degree expectations of the owners. I'm sure with a Locost solution you can overcome all of these reports with the right coilover design. You have the knowledge and the experience. You got this.

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 19, 2021, 5:51 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7152
Location: "Banana Republic"
rx7locost wrote:
If the outcome of leaf springs is not to your liking, the job to fix it again is just as large. Without heat treating, bending leaf springs in a press is not a long term solution, they will bend further sooner than later.


Not true Chuck, but I appreciate that you shared your opinion.

Steve, I don't care what way you go with this. Just discussing. It is a forum after all :cheers:

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.azsenaterepublicans.com/audit
https://www.oann.com/india-govt-declares-most-populated-state-officially-covid-free-after-widespread-use-of-ivermectin/
https://www.oann.com/fauci-hhs-officials-discuss-using-new-virus-from-china-to-enforce-universal-vaccines-in-footage-from-oct-2019/
https://www.oann.com/the-story-of-iverm ... -the-drug/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
https://rumble.com/vokrf7-sen.-johnson-expert-panel-on-federal-vaccine-mandates.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 20, 2021, 9:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 8, 2014, 6:08 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Green Bay, WI
Chuck, Yeah it’s a lot to take in. Ultimately ride and handling are top priority. I plan on driving this everyday and road trips. I really do like the simplicity of the leaf set up. I can do the 5 bar( I have all the parts in the garage). Getting the springs right is pain in the ass to be honest. As good as the calcs are their not right. I did 3 spring swaps on the 7 and I may go back to the set I took off.
I know a leaf set up can do all of this as well. To be honest the true MG guys I see on the other forums are a bunch of whiners. Their worse than Corvette and Porsche guys. The expectations are way off. I have a hard time believing the Armstrong’s work better than tube, or like you said the tubes are wrong.

MV8 thanks for all your leg work. To be honest changing the front spring perch is not an easy task. To move it, moves away and down based on where it sits.

_________________
Steve

My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 20, 2021, 9:06 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: July 17, 2008, 9:11 am
Posts: 5966
Location: West Chicago,IL
Okay, I'll bite. which part is not true? The part about re-doing a bad choice of springs/geometry, or the bending not being a long term solution? I'd truly like to know your thoughts.

If it is the latter, I will say that the longevity of cold form arching is certainly debatable. There are all sorts of sites debating this subject. Some say it is fine. Others say it will not last. I suspect it may be application stress related. I went to a large truck shop (think busses, gravel trucks, semi's and the like) when investigating arching during the restoring my MGA. They only did hot arching on the trucks they worked on. BTW, they did the heat treating and tempering on site. As it turned out my 50 year old springs were just fine and I didn't have to go thru the hot process.

_________________
Chuck.

“Any suspension will work if you don’t let it.” - Colin Chapman

Visit my ongoing MGB Rustoration log: over HERE

Or my Wankel powered Locost log : over HERE


Last edited by rx7locost on October 20, 2021, 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 20, 2021, 12:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: August 8, 2014, 6:08 pm
Posts: 1087
Location: Green Bay, WI
Chuck after all this I’ll be headed for a 5 link. I do the work and get it organized. I don’t want to use little springs and I really don’t feel like sinking a $1k into custom ones. For $500 I can buy coilovers. The rest are pick up points, the bars I have. I’ll have to buy 1 bar, $45.

_________________
Steve

My build : http://www.locostusa.com/forums/viewtop ... 35&t=17160

MGB/GT V8 5.0L. viewtopic.php?f=36&t=20782


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: MG GT V8
PostPosted: October 20, 2021, 6:21 pm 
Offline
Automotive Encyclopedia
User avatar

Joined: December 22, 2006, 2:05 pm
Posts: 7152
Location: "Banana Republic"
Sure Chuck. You made two general claims as fact that are not true for everybody:
1) "If the outcome of leaf springs is not to your liking, the job to fix it again is just as large."
2) "Without heat treating, bending leaf springs in a press is not a long term solution, they will bend further sooner than later."

1A) It’s not a light switch. Aspects can be adjusted like any suspension. The only difference in geometry is the front eye being slightly further forward and the leafs are wider. The rate is adjustable. The torque reaction is adjustable.

2A) The difference seems to be that I have experience with re-arcing but your argument is based on an opinion poll that was inconclusive. It sounds like everyone you read about had a different experience, which should tell you that the details are important. Not all leafs are the same in alloy, temper, or have design elements that ensure long life by preventing fatigue failure. Was the arc increased or decreased? Was it a little or a lot? The tension side is sometimes shot peened to improve durability. Heavy damping or riding around on blown shocks? Off-roading or Sunday driver? Generalization doesn’t work. Too many variables.

I’m not convinced a de-arc would be necessary when using the jeep leafs, just fewer leafs for the jeep stack to bend the same distance or less than normal with a lighter load.

Steve, for the sake of discussion, the front eye should be an inch or more lower than the rear eye. This reduces roll steer toe-out of the outside wheel and lowers the roll center.

_________________
My posts are my own opinion and do not represent an official public position by any other person, place, thing, animal, vegetable, mineral, etc.
https://www.azsenaterepublicans.com/audit
https://www.oann.com/india-govt-declares-most-populated-state-officially-covid-free-after-widespread-use-of-ivermectin/
https://www.oann.com/fauci-hhs-officials-discuss-using-new-virus-from-china-to-enforce-universal-vaccines-in-footage-from-oct-2019/
https://www.oann.com/the-story-of-iverm ... -the-drug/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33278625/
https://rumble.com/vokrf7-sen.-johnson-expert-panel-on-federal-vaccine-mandates.html


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 268 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
POWERED_BY