LocostUSA.com

I saw this and thought I would post this for those who are welding up their own frames. Experienced welders should already know the risks, but many of us are beginner welders and may not realize the risks.

http://www.brewracingframes.com/id75.htm

Summary: don't use brake cleaner to clean the surface before you weld. The brake cleaner, argon gas, and heat combine to make Phosgene which is a very bad nuro toxin that can brain damage or even cause death with as little as a 4 PPM exposure.

Stay safe and build on.

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Build on

Chris
Build: NA Miata based +221 Se7en

Thanks for posting this up! Good information.

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Build Log (not much there yet): http://lotus.reddeth.com
442e frame, 3.4l Camaro donor

Definitely a good point to make. Thanks!

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie

When we were working on the pipeline this summer one of the laborers came into the mechanics shop and told us his generator was hard to start.
He said that he could get it going by spraying brakleen into the air filter. We just about fell over. After that I went to the safety office and they issued a bulletin to be read out the very next morning adressing the danger of heat and brakleen.
The laborer had developed a very effective chemical weapon and didnt even know it.

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The biggest thing in motocross.

I have actually made this mistake once, I accidentally used brake cleaner instead of carb cleaner on a scooter and the resulting combustion fumes felt like my sinuses were on fire. My face was right near the muffler when I was tweaking the carb. It felt weird for at least a few hours.

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+442E, SR20det, Thunderbird/Markviii IRS with clutch lsd, R1 suspension all around, Mustang II 2" drop spindles, Woodward steering rack

It should be noted that the brake cleaner in the article is CHLORINATED brake cleaner. Chloroinated brake cleaner has
the followng chemicals 01 TETRACHLOROETHYLENE 127-18-4 90.0 %,02 2-PROPANONE 67-64-1 15.0 %,03 CARBON DIOXIDE 124-38-9 5.0 % NON-chlorinated brake cleaner has:Naphtha, VM&P 8030-30-6 40–60%,Methylene Chloride 75-09-2 30–50%,Perchloroethylene 127-18-4 15–25%,Carbon Dioxide 124-38-9 1 - 5% While both are chock full 'o' harsh chemicals the non-chlorinated version is safer to use to de-grease parts to be welded. We follow the brake cleaner with good ol' soap and water before welding, and generally have no toxic fumes.

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-JOSH
442ish round tube chasis, 2.0 lsj ecotec, solstice transmission, winters q/c rear

It's interesting the non-chlorinated brake cleaner has so much chlorine in it. Are those numbers after the name an ID for an MSDS sheet or something? I notice the same number here: TETRACHLOROETHYLENE 127-18-4 90.0, Perchloroethylene 127-18-4 15–25%

I imagine caution is always in order with this stuff...

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Marcus Barrow - Car9 an open design community supported sports car for home builders!
SketchUp collection for LocostUSA: "Dream it, Build it, Drive it!"
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Those numbers are not the MSDS, but are the CAS registry number. Each substance has a unique identifier. They can be researched for all physical properties, including health warnings. CAS registry is maintained by the American Chemical Society.

Fun fact about heating brake cleaner:

Irritating to the upper respiratory tract. Giddiness, headache, intoxication, nausea and vomiting may follow the inhalation of large amounts while massive amounts can cause breathing arrest, liver and kidney damage, and death. Concentrations of 600 ppm and more can affect the central nervous system after a few minutes.

Greg

Yes,Caution is in order! We always wash our parts with warm soapy water after de-greasing with solvent,brake cleaner or removing paint with chemical stripper, or using metal prep acid (aluminum) or passivating/pickling stainless prior to welding. I am far from a chemist ( although I did do some amature recreational experiments with some chemicals in my younger days ) but soap and water appear to remove the residue left by most common metalworking chemicals. You raise an interesting question, why do they call it non-chlorinated?

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-JOSH
442ish round tube chasis, 2.0 lsj ecotec, solstice transmission, winters q/c rear

Why all the nasty fumey volatile stuff? We always just used Formula 409 Heavy-Duty Degreaser (from Clorox Commercial Solutions line) to clean tons of steel. Spray it on a bunch of pieces, go back to the first ones that have sat a few minutes (but before they dry) and wipe 'em dry with clean paper towels. We cleaned all the parts (couple thousand) when the arrived from the laser shop, put them on the shelf... they stayed shiney and 99% rust free as they awaited welding over the following few weeks.

Available at Office Depot, Menards, etc...

.

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http://www.SportsCarDesigner.com .... You want to design your own car... so go ahead. Sports Car Designer is the answer.

I've seen this Brakekleen + Welding gas + heat = Phosgene "meme" on a bunch of automotive forums, and frankly I'm going to have to call BS. Is heating this stuff up and breathing it a bad idea? Yep, heating ANY solvent and breathing the fumes is bad for you, some worse than others. Is your welder going to get you placed on the terror watch list? Pretty freaking unlikely...

I appreciate the need to treat chemicals with respect and use them appropriately, I find the hysterical "I made chemical weapons by accident" stuff to be a little OTT.

Respect is good, irrational fear often leads to very poor outcomes.

Cheers, Ted

Do some research on it, it appears to be for real. It's the end result of the chemical reaction that gets you, not the fumes of the brake cleaner.

From http://www.osha.gov/doc/outreachtraining/htmlfiles/weldhlth.html

PHOSGENE

Phosgene is formed by decomposition of chlorinated hydrocarbon solvents by ultraviolet radiation. It reacts with moisture in the lungs to produce hydrogen chloride, which in turn destroys lung tissue. For this reason, any use of chlorinated solvents should be well away from welding operations or any operation in which ultraviolet radiation or intense heat is generated.


So, just because fear becomes irrational doesn't make it wrong.

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Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains
Both available from https://www.lulu.com/

Nuts, I hate being wrong, I hate admitting it even more

It is an interesting reaction, with UV from the weld arc being the trigger, not the heat.

Cheers, Ted

There was a typo up about 4 posts, since edited and nobody's rereading.

Clorinated has tetrawhatever=bad.

Non Clorinated - which is all that's been available in Canada since the early 90's=this warning does not apply!

I reasearched this last fall. At least in Canada, this is not something I felt needed to be forwarded to my friends.

FWIW, Carquest has brake clean products labeled as "chlorinated" and "non-chlorinated" on the shelf for sale as of last week -- I didn't read the contents very carefully, the counterman steered me toward the chlorinated as more effective and cheaper.

I was in a store in London Ontario.

No welding was involved...

t