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PostPosted: December 19, 2022, 8:00 pm 
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Part 1: WTF are you talking about, Justin?

Well, technically I could just say "add sway bars" to interconnet the suspension, but that's not actually what this is about. Sway bars are U-bars that allow the same motion and resist differing motion. U-bars can perform the effects I'll be talking about, but not when connecting laterally (or longitudinally) adjacent wheels as is typically done. But if you reverse the arm on one end, you turn the U-bar into a Z-bar. A Z-bar allows differing motion and resists similar motion. There are also numerous different mechanisms that can function like a Z-bar that aren't physically a Z shaped torsion bar, but that's a convenient term to use to discuss this idea. So how can you link the corners with Z-bars? Well it has been done numerous times before in the automotive world.

Packard may be the only one to have done this with true Z-bars (torsion) on their "Torsion Level" suspension.
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BMC used hydraulics to accomplish the same.
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Citroen first did it with coil springs on the 2CV, before doing it hydraulically.
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The common theme with all of these cars is that they have been highly regarded for their impeccable ride qualities. This sounds like a 'comfort' thing, and as applied it primarily was. So why am I thinking about it and bringing it up here? Well, because some have also been unusually capable of not sacrificing handling to get that ride quality, and I believe it has further performance benefits that haven't sufficiently been explored as well. The few times these concepts have been applied in professional level racing, they have generally been banned shortly thereafter. But what if at the grassroots level having racecar like performance didn't require a racecar like ride, and still utilized the affordability and simplicity of it still being a fully passive suspension?

With a conventional suspension your 4 corner springs have ride, pitch, and roll all hopelessly intertwined. Changing one mode inherently changes both of the other modes. Adding sway bars only provides the ability to independently add roll stiffness. Additionally, once you're not on a perfectly planar surface (let alone if the surface is less than smooth) your carefully balanced tire loading gets all thrown out of whack. This is why it’s so important for corner balancing to be done on a perfectly level surface. The stiffer you suspension gets, the less tolerant it is of these disturbances.

Now let's take a chassis without any springs and throw some longitudinal Z-bars on it, connecting the f/r wheel pairs on each side of the car a la Packard. The f/r leverage ratios determine the stiffness relative to the CG, which is the baseline most people use for handling balance. The problem is that unless your leverage ratios match your weight distribution, which is not typical considered ‘ideal’ for handling balance, just sitting statically the car will inherently pitch forward or back to the bump stops. And even if it is perfectly static balanced, any load change or dynamic imbalance will have similarly disastrous results. As I understand it, BMC was the only one to not add any additional spring elements. Instead they relied only on significantly progressive leverage ratios that biased the (hydraulic) Z-bars against the imbalance. As a result one of the drawbacks was that they were a bit 'pitchy' despite their otherwise good ride and handling.

You can see in the picture above that Citroen added rubber bellows (springing elements) on either end of the 2CV coil spring canister to ‘control’ pitch. On the other hand, their hydraulic system linked everything and used an engine driven pump to compensate, which goes beyond the scope here.

Packard however added a second pair of springs to the rear axle to carry the imbalance. Here's where it gets interesting through. They added two conventional corner springs to the rear axle. I've seen a sketch of a version with coil springs, but most resources show the torsion bar version (above) that also allowed integrating a load leveling system as well. However, on a car not likely to see large f/r loading variation, like race cars and 2-seat sports cars, these two springs could technically be replace by just a single (3rd) Z-bar. The 3rd Z-bar would basically just be a pitch-only bar that also carries the relatively small imbalance from the leverage ratio vs CG misalignment. In and of itself, and ignoring motion ratio changes with travel, it would have no direct effect on roll and handling balance though, just as the longitudinal Z-bars would no direct effect on pitch.

The 3 Z-bar suspension would result in a fully functioning 4 wheel car suspension, but the 3rd Z-bar would have to be ‘double acting’ where it is reverse stressed at fully droop. By adding a 4th Z-bar opposite the 3rd Z-bar, it they would be able to be ‘single acting’ like the longitudinal side pair can, which means they’d go slack at full droop. The 4 Z-bar system would also be able to variably add ride stiffness, unlike the 3 Z-bar where ride is carried by the side pair Z-bars.

Now I've only been talking ride, pitch, and roll so far, but there is one more motion mode to consider: Twist. You know those one-wheel ramp travel articulation tests that 4x4's like to show off with? Yeah, that's twist.

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What does this have to do with pavement performance? Plenty. It goes back to my statement about how performance car suspension setup theory really only holds true on a perfectly planar surface. With a high twist stiffness, as with both independent corner springs and lateral U-bars on high performance cars, as soon as you move one wheel off from planar, the tire loading and handling balance get thrown out of whack. The only conventional way to not do so is how off-roaders do it, which is by lowering your ride, pitch, and roll (spring) rates. But that's bad for performance. Sure any suspension will work if you don’t let it, but what if you could let it work for you rather than against you? By using Z-bars there is as much roll stiffness as you want, but little to no twist stiffness. Non-planar? No problem. Everything from 1-wheel bumps/dips, to cutting across a road crown, to hitting the curbing at the apex, the tire loading variation from all of these plummets. It should be telling that corner balancing also basically becomes a simple function of your f/r leverage ratio, with little regard for how planar the surface is.

Consider hitting a 1-wheel bump while cornering with a conventional suspension. The load on the tire hitting the bump increases, as well as on the tire diagonally across from it. As it lifts that corner of the car, it reduces load on the tires laterally and longitudinally adjacent to it. This is that teeter-totter feeling you get when turning into an inclined driveway, and is what imbalances everything with a conventional suspension… Including the handling balance at that moment.

If you hit that same 1-wheel bump with the (3 or 4) Z-bar suspension, that impact load gets transferred to push down on the laterally/longitudinally adjacent wheel pair and pull up on the one diagonally across. This reduces or eliminates (depending on bump size/speed) the teeter-totter effect, and maintains equivalent tire loading (handling) balance.

Questions, comments, or concerns?... I mean, those other than “It would be cheaper, faster, and/or easier to just do something conventional.”

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-Justin

"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie


Last edited by Driven5 on December 22, 2022, 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: December 20, 2022, 1:32 am 
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I'm intrigued. Is there anyway you could paint up some diagrams to help a visual learner like myself?

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PostPosted: December 20, 2022, 3:25 am 
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Not mine, but perhaps this could help...

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"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie


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PostPosted: December 20, 2022, 9:58 am 
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So, Justin, are you going to make one of these things? How about a 1/4 or 1/5 scale model? Or maybe a go kart, so you can actually drive it around and test it?

Cheers,

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Damn! That front slip angle is way too large and the Ackerman is just a muddle.

Build Log: viewtopic.php?f=35&t=5886


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PostPosted: December 20, 2022, 12:16 pm 
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Yes Lonnie, I want to do test this. Ideally I'd like to build something that could first be adapted to test on my BMW 128i, or even the 280Z race car I'm involved with. However, adapting this to a strut based suspension on a production car chassis provides an additional layer of complexity that I'm struggling with. If I can't find something I like enough for that, I'm considering adapting the idea to the non-traditional chassis I've started, the main constraint of which has a true rectangular cockpit and does not taper in the foot well like a typical Locost. And if I can't find something I like enought for that, I'm further considering starting over on a chassis more specifically designed to accommodate this type of suspension. Which leads neatly into...

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"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie


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PostPosted: December 20, 2022, 12:17 pm 
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Part 2: Neat… So what’s your point?

Now that you've got some background to chew on, and I'm totally open to answering additional questions or making clarifications on this, but the main purpose of this thread is brainstorming about the many different methods for packaging and implementing such a system on an actual car. It can basically be any physical means of connecting them with a spring element somewhere in the mechanism.

I’m also going to backtrack on all of that Z-bar talk, and bring U-bars back into the mix here initially, specifically when configured unconventionally.

A true independent-mode interconnected suspension could also be accomplished with just 3 springs. One for ride, one for pitch, and one for roll. This would be the ‘ideal’ from a tuning perspective. This would actually be possible with 2 U-bars and 1 Z-bar. Mounting and actuating a longitudinal U-bar between the front pair and rear pair suspensions for pitch would be the ‘easiest’ one. The transvers U-bar acting at the roll distribution point near mid frame, and the transverse Z-bar acting at the CG, would be the bigger challenge to mount and actuate. So probably not a very viable solution, although I’m open to ideas. I’ve thought of a few, but they get complicated and/or heavy rather quickly.

Another 3-spring method would connect diagonally opposed wheel pairs with what I’d call E-bars. Think U-bars diagonally connecting wheel pairs, with each having an extra mid-ish mounted arm that connect to each other. The problem is that this goes back to linking ride, pitch, and roll together, with the major improvement simply being getting rid of the twist resistance of conventional suspensions.

So that brings us to the previous examples tying each side together with Z-bars, which is the main difficulty, then adding 1 or 2 Z-bars front and/or rear.

Doing it Packard style with simple torsion bars might actually be the easiest solution, as long as starting with a purpose designed frame. A traditional Locost frame could possibly be modified, but would package poorly on my non-tapered frame, let alone if wanting to adapt to a production based car. Namely it would probably best use a full-length constant frame taper that the large torsion bars could mount to the outboard face of, as well as either longer control arms or moving the axle back a little relative to the cockpit, which would end up looking a lot like the ‘bigger’ frame Cheapracer was working on a few years back:

Image

Next up would be hydraulically connecting the front to rear. This is by far the most common that has been used by automotive manufacturers. Damping can be built into the hydraulic system, or conventional dampers at each corner. However, production hardware is not particularly viable, and DIY solutions leave something to be desired. About the best thing I’ve come up with is off-the-shelf lowrider hydraulic cylinders, and an accumulator for springing. At its simplest, these are actually quite affordable. It might even be possible to convert one to an inverted style strut for use on a production car. Probably the biggest drawback is that they’re also quite heavy for their size, using both a full piston diameter solid steel shaft and thick wall steel body to withstand the pressure spikes. With an accumulator softening the system pressure spikes, might it be possible to custom build a conventional shock conversion with a solid piston, or would it be too much for the body and/or piston seals? The shaft being significantly narrower than the piston in such a conversion could make even relatively small seepage past the seals problematic over time. Motion ratio limitations could also make getting the f/r balance right, as there are limited options to choose from for cylinder diameter. I know that the production units typically used ‘special’ hydraulic fluid, and don’t know how important that might be either.

Another option could be to use air bags. Functionally they’d be pretty similar to hydraulics, but with springing built in, and thus no accumulator needed. It would be considerably lighter, but take up considerably more space and probably be more difficult to package. Bags that will go over dampers like coil springs are available, but with even fewer options and are significantly more expensive. The limited selection of sizes/strengths could likewise be challenging if you have any motion ratio limitations, that might require adding some extra leveraging mechanism to balance it out. Temperature dependence of gas pressure could also be an issue if trying to avoid the cost of a compressor system that can compensate.

Getting into other mechanical linkages, the steering lock generally prohibits a straight-line connection between the front and rear control arm mounting points, and the similar motion direction of the control arms on the same side of the car needs to be reversed on one end somehow. Bellcranks and push/pull rods could be used for linkages, and maybe even cables when set up in opposing ‘single acting’ pairs. Spring elements could be coils, smaller sections of torsion, full or partial leafs, or whatever else your imagination can come up with. The possibilities for mechanical linkages are are limitless, but the packaging is the opposite. I’ve probably got a half dozen or so of these that I cycle between on a recurring basis. The real trouble is trying to avoid it turning into a Rube Goldberg mechanism.

For example, see starting with the upper left part of the Z-bar sketch above. The two impractically long leafs could be replaced by a (mostly) rigid beam with half of a conventional leaf spring mounted to either end. Keeping the half-leafs at either end, the center pivot beam they're attached to could be replaced by chassis mounted bell cranks, that are tied together with a pull rod or even just a steel cable. Additionally, it technically only needs one spring element, as long as it has the right properties, so you could replace one of the half-leafs with a rigid beam. From there you could replace the other half-leaf with a rigid beam and place a coil spring in the middle of the pull rod or steel cable... In other words, a 2CV style setup.

So… How would you go about this? Which methods do you like or dislike, and why?

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"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie


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PostPosted: December 25, 2022, 3:04 pm 
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Here's an article on the McLaren Kinetic suspension, they use a hydraulic method: https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a ... d-feature/


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PostPosted: December 25, 2022, 6:54 pm 
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Quote:
Questions, comments, or concerns?


Nevermind....


Last edited by RoHorn on January 1, 2023, 3:13 am, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: December 27, 2022, 5:22 am 
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RoHorn wrote:
I often wondered how they would behave if the lines F/R were crossed diagonally.
With no other changes to how the system functions, the roll resistance would approach zero.


RoHorn wrote:
...forcing the disturbance of one or more wheels even further onto the other wheel(s) does...what?
It's not forcing the disturbance onto the other wheels, it's balancing it between the other wheels. Consider if you intentionally corner balance a car with 100 pounds more than 'ideal' on the drivers front and passenger rear tires, and 100 pounds less than 'ideal' on the passenger front and driver rear tires. What do you think the effect would be on chassis stability and traction optimization at high speed in both left and right hand corners? Further, what do you think the effect would be if both the amount and direction it was imbalanced away from the ideal corner weights was constantly changing?... Because that's exactly what happens to a conventional suspension in the real world, and is one of the things an interconnected suspension improves upon.


RoHorn wrote:
That list of what you don't want it to do is a lot larger than what you do want it to do - and that last list is what I don't know...
The list of what I don't want the suspension to do, is basically the list of what a conventional suspension does. The list of what I do want the suspension to do, is basically the list of what an interconnected suspension does.

1) I don't want roll and pitch rates entangled with each other. I do want roll and pitch rates independent from each other.

2) I don't want high warp/twist stiffness. I do want high warp/twist compliance.

3) I don't want handling balance (chassis stability) changing across uneven surfaces. I do want handling balance (chassis stability) consistent across uneven surfaces.

4) I don't want tire load consistency (traction optimization) to be minimized across uneven surfaces. I do want tire load consistency (traction optimization) to be maximized across uneven surfaces.

4) I don't want to choose ride quality OR performance. I do want to choose ride quality AND performance.

I would guess that these are also some of the reasons McLaren went with a variation on this for their Proactive Chassis (roll) Control system.

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"Orville Wright did not have a pilots license." - Gordon MacKenzie


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PostPosted: December 31, 2022, 1:40 pm 
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Happy New Year all. I am loving the topic, the discussion and the erudition. Thank you!


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