LocostUSA.com

so i have a customers mini in my shop . he wants us to install a motorcycle motor into the car .
his 1st plan was to do a gold wing motor not what i would pick .
now he came across a triumph rocket 3 that has a 2.2 L motor that he has a little boner for !
he wants us to now install that motor in the car .

what do you guys think about that motor ?

I think it's fabulous! I've got one myself for just such a purpose, and if it wasn't for the EPA's position on motorcycle-engined cars I'd be looking for financing to make a production kit with it (maybe a modernized TR3). It has everything it needs but reverse (an exercise left for the student) and though it has clockwise output (for pinon on the left of the ring gear) it also has an internal rotation-reversing gear just ahead of the output shaft and it's be no huge challenge to de-reverse it for conventional diffs. Torque like a car engine, light weight with trans built in; man, I love it. GFI, as the young folks said a third of a century ago.

_________________
Locost builder and adventurer, and owner/operator of http://www.kineticvehicles.com

Why wouldn't you pick a Goldwing engine?

Smooth, natural balance, wide free revving powerband, compact, low CoG, has reverse, parts are common and cheap ......

i was trying to sell him on a busa motor .
then he came across a salvage goldwing so i was what ever the customer wants he will get . the gold wing motor is a good motor has good power numbers and they are smooth as hell .

so i get a call 1st thing monday and he has now placed a bid in on a rocket 3 salvage bike for the mini's new motor .
i have found out that the gear box is a little weak on the rocket 3's .
because the car is now going mid engine rear drive if the gear box needs service it's going to be a bitch to work on the thing .
this hole chassis and cage is all designed and built for the honda motor and the mx-5 front and rear suspension with the mx-5 diff .
i don't even know if the rocket motor is going to fit ?
right now i only have a half inch between the fire wall and the front of the motor .

i don't think there is a big deferents between the two motors power wise to justify the cost of the redesign .

Tell us more about that--inquiring minds want to know. I wouldn't try working on the gearbox of any single-case bike engine while it's still in the frame--pull the engine and do it on the bench. If the Honda has a separate transmission case, a la some Harleys and Royal Endfields, that's a different story, but the Rocket III (and Hayabusa and KZ1200 and every other current production bike I know of) has the trans in the engine case.I just now slapped a tape measure on mine--it's 22" long; maybe that'll help. I measured it in the bike and don't know if the drive shaft sticks out the back of the engine. Out of curiosity, how long is the Goldwing powerplant?You have a bunch of good reasons to stick with the Goldwing, no matter how good the Triumph Rocket III motor might be (or what we, your fellow Locosters, think of it). So I'd suggest you quote your customer a redesign fee, advise him the power difference may not justify the cost of redesign, and let him decide; he'll probably agree with you.

_________________
Locost builder and adventurer, and owner/operator of http://www.kineticvehicles.com

i'm not seeing a big deferents in power between the two motors to justify the extra cost to do the redesign at this point .

from that i'm finding out is that the gear to the drive shaft is a weak link .i'm not at this time 100% clear just what gear it is . i would need to see the part brake down to know or a better guess as to what they are talking about .
if you ride the bike as you should it's fine but it seams that the burn out minded people tend to have some gear there eat it's self up .
so would it hold up on a car ? i would think so if your not into jack rabbit starts ?

i'm not talking about a total tead down of the motor . but it is nice to be able to leave the motor in the chassis to do things like a clutch .

if i remember right this goldwing motor is 20.6" . it's more were the countershaft or out put shaft is . i could push the fire wall another 2" at best forward more before the seat it's self is hitting it .

don't get me wrong i would love to use the rocket 3 motor .
i don't see at this time spending 2500 more dollars is a plus between the two motors ?

as the guy doing the job it sucks when you get last minute changes like this .

doesn't sound like it's worth the trouble at this point, but to be fair about the power issue, the Rocket motor is significantly bigger with quite a bit more torque.

_________________
------------------------------------
Noah

i talked the car owner out of changing the motor to the rocket 3 motor .
he did buy a salvage rocket 3 and i now have the bike at my shop .
it fired right up and seams to run good so i think the 1700 dollars with the shipping he paid for the thing is a good price .
he wants to give me the bike now as part of the payment for the work on his car .

so if i do take it as some of the payment what to put the motor in ?
i have had this vw based riot kit car here at my shop for some years now the owner of the car has not even stopped by to look at it . i could build a tube chassis for it and use the rocket 3 motor for that car .

It's not your car + "always give the customer what he wants."

You're a businessman... make it worth your while. Decide what has to be done, figure what price will make you happy, and present the bill to the customer. Either way you're happy - either you "talked him out of it" via the big bill, or you'll be happy to do it and make the big bucks. What am I missing?

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/

Of course he does - he no longer likes nor wants the engine because you talked him out of it! If you don't already know what you'll do with it, it'll just sit on a shelf depreciating... there's that pesky business thing again. Know anyone that wants/needs one? If not it's probably money better placed elsewhere.

How about making your own version of the "Rocket", the little cigar-shaped F1 car for the street?

_________________
Midlana book: Build this mid-engine Locost!, http://midlana.com/stuff/book/
Kimini book: Designing mid-engine cars using FWD drivetrains, http://www.kimini.com/book_info/

Where are you located? I'd be interested--no, wait, I hear that......but then again......so since I didn't want that part anyway, maybe I'm interested again. Where are you?

_________________
Locost builder and adventurer, and owner/operator of http://www.kineticvehicles.com

of course i did not really want to do a motor that 1st would be a big design change to the cars chassis .
i built the chassis and installed the firewall fit evey thing and all that was left to do was the finish welding if the motor mounts . was it worth it to me for another 2500 to 3000 K to do any changes at zero hour hell no !
you make money by getting the in and out the door not by redesigning .
there are also many other things that could and would change in the total design and not just the motor mounts .
you should give the customer what they want but also if they are just going to piss money away then you as a business person should also give the customer the pro's and com's about what they are looking to do .
like is said this could and may well open up a hole can of worms that may make the price i quoted dubble so the 2500 to 3000 grand could turn out to be more like 6 or 7 grand more .
when i put the ruff measurments in the design program of the rocket 3 motor into this chassis for the mini i would have to move the fire wall 2." forward more and what that does is stops the seats from sliding all the way back .
then there is the oiling of the rocket motor .
i know how the goldwing motor will do in a cars chassis but will the rocket 3 motor have any oiling trubble ? you have to remember a bike leans in a turn there for the motor also leans . in a car it stays up right all the time .
could i design a new oil pan well yes but that's just the 1st thing over the cost of the 2500 to 3000 K . material and labor on that what 500 or 600 dollars . now the price just went up to 3000 to 3500 .
so at the end of the day it's best to some times talk a customer out of a idea than just take his money . i would not be in business for as long as i have been if i just sold people what they think is a good idea .
so because i don't know any one that has done a rocket 3 motor in a car to see just how they hold up i will do the R and D on my own car 1st that way if i do sell a job for a rocket 3 motor i will know 1st hand the does and don't .
again it's about the customer sell them some thing totally new and how many times will they have to come back for me to keep tweeking things ?

if i take the bike it will be for a project i will do and not to just sit .
like i said i have a ABA riot vw kit car here i have a tube chassis all built for it so in about 60 to 70 hours i could have that motor in that car . or i could find a vw kit car like a spyder kit car and still use the same vw chassis .
one of my cars is a F1000 i have no want of need to drive a car like that on the street . so any open car with open wheels is totaly out !

Indeed it does, which explains why many great bike engines are unsuitable for BECs.The Rocket 3 is dry sump, that's one of the features that drew me to it. The oil bag (that's Harley talk for oil tank) mounts on the side of the engine, it's about as plug-and-play an oil system as you could hope for.Right, but as I recall you've not yet decided if you're going to take the bike. If you decide not to take it as partial payment--or if you'd just rather have the money than the bike--I'm interested in buying it from your customer. Then he'll have more money to give you for the Goldwing car you're building him.

_________________
Locost builder and adventurer, and owner/operator of http://www.kineticvehicles.com

I'm pretty sure I read that an Accusump takes care of the oiling issue.

Also, doesn't the nature of a dry sump pretty much make it a nonissue, as long as the oil tank is big enough to handle reduced oil return from the sump during cornering?

_________________
------------------------------------
Noah

Yes, presuming your engine already has a dry sump and you're not having to deal with aftermarket alternatives, but even when dry sump is standard, most dry sump arrangements still call for installing and plumbing a remote oil tank, and the tank and plumbing are part of the Rocket3 engine and trans package.

Mind you, I'm not trying to sway anybody toward the Rocket3 motor vs. the Goldwing motor. Indeed I am hoping that 962porsche and his customer abandon the idea of the engine swap, and send me a note off-list telling me what they want for their wrecked Rocket3. Seriously.

_________________
Locost builder and adventurer, and owner/operator of http://www.kineticvehicles.com